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Reverend Gixxer
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Posted: Fri May 9th, 2008 09:02 am |
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RC45er wrote:
For me established sayings like "nigger in the woodpile", and dolls called golliwogs aren't racist.
Yet to some, a significant some, they would be. Shouldn't racism be defined by a greater collective opinion than just someone's individual thoughts? I'm not for one moment saying that you're racist for using these expressions, but the first is a deliberately negative phrase used to highlight a problem by intimating that the problem wouldn't exist without "the nigger" and the second comes from a time when it was deemed acceptable to characterise a person of a different race as a figure of fun. Whether meant as racist now or not is almost irrelevant; the context and history of these expressions is what defines them as racist and unacceptable. "Racism" against whites tends to be reactive (although not exclusively so, I admit) whereas racism against blacks tends to be proactive. Stamp out the latter and the former may follow.
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dave1450
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Posted: Sat May 10th, 2008 06:45 pm |
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Reverend Gixxer wrote: RC45er wrote:
For me established sayings like "nigger in the woodpile", and dolls called golliwogs aren't racist.
Yet to some, a significant some, they would be. Shouldn't racism be defined by a greater collective opinion than just someone's individual thoughts? I'm not for one moment saying that you're racist for using these expressions, but the first is a deliberately negative phrase used to highlight a problem by intimating that the problem wouldn't exist without "the nigger" and the second comes from a time when it was deemed acceptable to characterise a person of a different race as a figure of fun. Whether meant as racist now or not is almost irrelevant; the context and history of these expressions is what defines them as racist and unacceptable. "Racism" against whites tends to be reactive (although not exclusively so, I admit) whereas racism against blacks tends to be proactive. Stamp out the latter and the former may follow.
So once again if us white guys behave better others may too? And the racism that led to the Hutu's and Tutus had what exactly to do with us? Why should I as a white person accept the implied blame that to be racist is to be white, and that racism is caused by being white? And being butchered because the black man is being reactive should make me feel better?
Last edited on Sat May 10th, 2008 06:46 pm by dave1450
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RC45er
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Posted: Sun May 11th, 2008 07:04 am |
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Rev gixxer. Those sayings and even the words are just that, words. They are established and innocent sayings with a known non-racist meaning. Words can't be racist unless they are used in a racist way and the definition of that is easy.
Blacks call themselves "nigger" as a mark of respect so how can the use of the word be automatically racist?
Racism always has an agenda and the best definition I've seen is.
An excuse blacks use to justify their relative failure in life.
A word Indians/Pakistanis use to get an advantage whatever it may be.
A word that doesn't exist in the area of white to Chinese, Malaysian, Indonesian, Phillipine, Thai relations or any other group with colour but the first two.
I have no racism but I f*cking despise the "race" industry, the thousands who have non-jobs in it at the taxpayers expense and it's apologists in the chhattering classes.
Last edited on Sun May 11th, 2008 07:08 am by RC45er
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Reverend Gixxer
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Posted: Sun May 11th, 2008 12:05 pm |
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dave1450 wrote:
So once again if us white guys behave better others may too?
Yes.
dave1450Why should I as a white person accept the implied blame that to be racist is to be white, and that racism is caused by being white?
Because historically, it has been
dave1450 wrote: And being butchered
When were you last butchered?
dave1450 wrote: because the black man is being reactive should make me feel better?
Which 'black man' would that be?Last edited on Sun May 11th, 2008 12:06 pm by Reverend Gixxer
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Reverend Gixxer
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Posted: Sun May 11th, 2008 12:10 pm |
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RC45er wrote:
Rev gixxer. Those sayings and even the words are just that, words. They are established and innocent sayings with a known non-racist meaning. Words can't be racist unless they are used in a racist way and the definition of that is easy.
Blacks call themselves "nigger" as a mark of respect so how can the use of the word be automatically racist?
Racism always has an agenda and the best definition I've seen is.
An excuse blacks use to justify their relative failure in life.
A word Indians/Pakistanis use to get an advantage whatever it may be.
A word that doesn't exist in the area of white to Chinese, Malaysian, Indonesian, Phillipine, Thai relations or any other group with colour but the first two.
I have no racism but I f*cking despise the "race" industry, the thousands who have non-jobs in it at the taxpayers expense and it's apologists in the chhattering classes.
Any 'known' non racist meaning is borne simply through ignorance. (Some) black people call themselves nigga as a way of reclaiming and thus diffusing the effect of the word. It doesn't give other (non-black) people the right to use it too. As for your definition , well, I guess it's your opinion. Personally, I think it's a naiive, ignorant, lazy one. But then that's just an opinion too.
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RC45er
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Posted: Mon May 12th, 2008 03:18 am |
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Rev
"Ignorance" only came through hindsight and PC which is a brainwashing technique. The definition was meant to be humorous but obviously way over your head.
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eddieknocker
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Posted: Mon May 12th, 2008 04:35 am |
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Reverend Gixxer wrote: RC45er wrote:
Rev gixxer. Those sayings and even the words are just that, words. They are established and innocent sayings with a known non-racist meaning. Words can't be racist unless they are used in a racist way and the definition of that is easy.
Blacks call themselves "nigger" as a mark of respect so how can the use of the word be automatically racist?
Racism always has an agenda and the best definition I've seen is.
An excuse blacks use to justify their relative failure in life.
A word Indians/Pakistanis use to get an advantage whatever it may be.
A word that doesn't exist in the area of white to Chinese, Malaysian, Indonesian, Phillipine, Thai relations or any other group with colour but the first two.
I have no racism but I f*cking despise the "race" industry, the thousands who have non-jobs in it at the taxpayers expense and it's apologists in the chhattering classes.
Any 'known' non racist meaning is borne simply through ignorance. (Some) black people call themselves nigga as a way of reclaiming and thus diffusing the effect of the word. It doesn't give other (non-black) people the right to use it too. As for your definition , well, I guess it's your opinion. Personally, I think it's a naiive, ignorant, lazy one. But then that's just an opinion too.
+1 . It's not down to you what is "racist" - it's down to the "victim". Pretty obvious no?
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eddieknocker
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Posted: Mon May 12th, 2008 04:50 am |
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Think it may have been said already but here goes.
I instinctively get annoyed at positive discrimination/ PCness etc as most typical white dudes but then if you just stop for one tiny second and think ok maybe i can put up with that as a little payback for hundreds of years of slavery and colonialism etc etc then maybe is not such a bad thing.
All those cliched comments about "imagine what would happen if a white person said that" when some non-white dude has made a "honky/white trash" comment seem ridiculous and are purely gut-reaction.
Really - is it THAT much to take after what we as white europeans have done?
And just to throw this log on the fire we all know that if Africa had colonised Europe and the New World before us they would have made slaves of us...wouldn't they?
As i said to my Nuyorican DJ friend when we had a "heated" debate - he is half black (slave ancestry) and half Spanish (coloniser) so he can argue with himself instead of me!
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RC45er
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Posted: Mon May 12th, 2008 05:31 am |
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| EK, sorry to disagree mate. Whether a used word is racist or not is dependent only on the context in which its used. A word in itself can't be racist or can be racist depending on whether it's used in a derogatory manner or not. I also disagree that it's only how the receiver perceives it. sometimes we are brainwashed by PC but in the ind the intent of PC is that only approved words can be used and humour will be non-existent as anything can offend somebody. Nigger in the Woodpile for me has a specific meaning that is absolutely non-racist. I accept that we have been brainwashed into believing it is and I personally don't use it.
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eddieknocker
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Posted: Mon May 12th, 2008 07:51 am |
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RC45er wrote: EK, sorry to disagree mate. Whether a used word is racist or not is dependent only on the context in which its used. A word in itself can't be racist or can be racist depending on whether it's used in a derogatory manner or not. I also disagree that it's only how the receiver perceives it. sometimes we are brainwashed by PC but in the ind the intent of PC is that only approved words can be used and humour will be non-existent as anything can offend somebody. Nigger in the Woodpile for me has a specific meaning that is absolutely non-racist. I accept that we have been brainwashed into believing it is and I personally don't use it.
So what youre saying is you can call a black person a nigger but because you may not be using it is a racist sense means that they should not take it that way? i've seen some stupid shit written on this forum before but that takes the biscuit. Take any derogatory race related term , go up to someone of that race and call them it and as they are beating the shit out of you tell them "sorry mate i didnt mean it like that". Fuck me.
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johnktm
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Posted: Mon May 12th, 2008 02:26 pm |
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eddieknocker wrote: Think it may have been said already but here goes.
I instinctively get annoyed at positive discrimination/ PCness etc as most typical white dudes but then if you just stop for one tiny second and think ok maybe i can put up with that as a little payback for hundreds of years of slavery and colonialism etc etc then maybe is not such a bad thing.
All those cliched comments about "imagine what would happen if a white person said that" when some non-white dude has made a "honky/white trash" comment seem ridiculous and are purely gut-reaction.
Really - is it THAT much to take after what we as white europeans have done?
And just to throw this log on the fire we all know that if Africa had colonised Europe and the New World before us they would have made slaves of us...wouldn't they?
As i said to my Nuyorican DJ friend when we had a "heated" debate - he is half black (slave ancestry) and half Spanish (coloniser) so he can argue with himself instead of me!
Just one point with regards your first paragraph,me nor any of my ancestors are or have been involved in the slave trade,indeed I`m` from working class background and as such my ancestors working in pits and mills were only a very tiny step up from slave labour themselves.Why do I have to `payback`for something me or my family had no part in.
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KhalH
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Posted: Mon May 12th, 2008 02:55 pm |
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Racism is ugly and unacceptable. You can use a racist term or couch it on non offensive language. Either way, it's wrong. I'll do what I can in my lifetime to prevent it, but I'd never, ever apologise for 'what white people did'. I'm responsible for my own actions and nothing more.
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dooley
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Posted: Mon May 12th, 2008 03:16 pm |
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that's a fair view, if you personally have never benefited from racism. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6422721.stm
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dave1450
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Posted: Mon May 12th, 2008 04:34 pm |
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Reverend Gixxer wrote: dave1450 wrote:
So once again if us white guys behave better others may too?
Yes.
dave1450Why should I as a white person accept the implied blame that to be racist is to be white, and that racism is caused by being white?
Because historically, it has been
Answer: And when the Japanese slaughtered Chinese, Korean and other groups then literally butchered white people pre and during WW2 was that not equally racist? For that matter when Turks butchered Armenians was that not also racist? Hutus and Tutus? Dharfur?
And am I responsible in any sense for the so called deeds of my ancestors?
dave1450 wrote: And being butchered
When were you last butchered?
Answer: Me personally? So far no, but several members of different races are trying to kill other people on grounds of race.
dave1450 wrote: because the black man is being reactive should make me feel better?
Which 'black man' would that be?
Answer: The same one as the white man who you so calmly generally blame for racism.
I do not condone racism, but we put down the "white man's burden" a very long time ago. I dont believe we have any special responsibility to other races because a trendy historical revisionist reading of history and we should not be involved in their border wars, which many of the modern conflicts are, and I know we drew most of them, but so what? Borders have always been fluid and liable to change with attitudes and leaders. The black and Arab states failure to achieve widespread social equality is not our problem. We need to fully address those issues in our own state, but that is not the same problem. We have a framework of secular law to address them.
Am I being racist, for example to say that religious groups who impose unnaceptable conditions on their children should be prosecuted without any reference to their religious beliefs?
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dave1450
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Posted: Mon May 12th, 2008 04:39 pm |
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dooley wrote: that's a fair view, if you personally have never benefited from racism. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6422721.stm
Slavery was not unique to the West, far from it. Arabs and Africans were at it long before European States got involved.
It was, and is bad, but I refuse to accept in any way any of it was my fault. When Africans start suing Arabs, then ther own leaders for this crime I might take them seriously.
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chilidawg
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Posted: Mon May 12th, 2008 06:58 pm |
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| Hell !! why stop there, I bet there's a whole bunch of Jews willing to take the Egyptians to court.
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dave1450
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Posted: Mon May 12th, 2008 07:03 pm |
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Absolutely.
And then there are the Helots, the Serfs, the PoW's of many wars, and while we are at it, why cant the English sue the Spaniards for their slave raids on England? Or the North African states for thier slave raids on us as well?
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eddieknocker
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Posted: Mon May 12th, 2008 10:18 pm |
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johnktm wrote: eddieknocker wrote: Think it may have been said already but here goes.
I instinctively get annoyed at positive discrimination/ PCness etc as most typical white dudes but then if you just stop for one tiny second and think ok maybe i can put up with that as a little payback for hundreds of years of slavery and colonialism etc etc then maybe is not such a bad thing.
All those cliched comments about "imagine what would happen if a white person said that" when some non-white dude has made a "honky/white trash" comment seem ridiculous and are purely gut-reaction.
Really - is it THAT much to take after what we as white europeans have done?
And just to throw this log on the fire we all know that if Africa had colonised Europe and the New World before us they would have made slaves of us...wouldn't they?
As i said to my Nuyorican DJ friend when we had a "heated" debate - he is half black (slave ancestry) and half Spanish (coloniser) so he can argue with himself instead of me!
Just one point with regards your first paragraph,me nor any of my ancestors are or have been involved in the slave trade,indeed I`m` from working class background and as such my ancestors working in pits and mills were only a very tiny step up from slave labour themselves.Why do I have to `payback`for something me or my family had no part in.
John see Dooleys link. I'm not saying you or your family are personally responsible as neither are mine but its whether or not you want to think of the bigger picture which it seems you dont - which is a shame.
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eddieknocker
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Posted: Mon May 12th, 2008 10:21 pm |
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chilidawg wrote: Hell !! why stop there, I bet there's a whole bunch of Jews willing to take the Egyptians to court.
I realise you are perhaps being ironic but if you really don't think that european colonialism has in the past affected millions of people and that its legacy still does to this day then you are kidding yourself.
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johnktm
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Posted: Mon May 12th, 2008 11:12 pm |
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eddieknocker wrote: johnktm wrote: eddieknocker wrote: Think it may have been said already but here goes.
I instinctively get annoyed at positive discrimination/ PCness etc as most typical white dudes but then if you just stop for one tiny second and think ok maybe i can put up with that as a little payback for hundreds of years of slavery and colonialism etc etc then maybe is not such a bad thing.
All those cliched comments about "imagine what would happen if a white person said that" when some non-white dude has made a "honky/white trash" comment seem ridiculous and are purely gut-reaction.
Really - is it THAT much to take after what we as white europeans have done?
And just to throw this log on the fire we all know that if Africa had colonised Europe and the New World before us they would have made slaves of us...wouldn't they?
As i said to my Nuyorican DJ friend when we had a "heated" debate - he is half black (slave ancestry) and half Spanish (coloniser) so he can argue with himself instead of me!
Just one point with regards your first paragraph,me nor any of my ancestors are or have been involved in the slave trade,indeed I`m` from working class background and as such my ancestors working in pits and mills were only a very tiny step up from slave labour themselves.Why do I have to `payback`for something me or my family had no part in.
John see Dooleys link. I'm not saying you or your family are personally responsible as neither are mine but its whether or not you want to think of the bigger picture which it seems you dont - which is a shame.
I`ve had look at the piece,but am stuggling to see it`s relavance to me,the fact that certain british buisness prospered from slavery is undeniable,are you saying Britain would not be in its current financial position, would not have experienced the industrial revolution and the massive changes it brought about had it not taken part in the slave trade
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