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Ian
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Posted: Mon Jul 7th, 2008 10:24 am |
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It was a serious question though. Somebody must know? I'm ready to be enlightened. 
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Animal
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Posted: Mon Jul 7th, 2008 10:49 am |
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England in Europe is known as "Bingland" isn't it?
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dave1450
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Posted: Mon Jul 7th, 2008 04:44 pm |
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Easy travel across Europe?
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Ian
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Posted: Mon Jul 7th, 2008 07:48 pm |
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I can't believe I killed this thread with a simple, honest question. 
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dave1450
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Posted: Mon Jul 7th, 2008 08:01 pm |
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| Well if you ask the impossible...
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Sotto Voce
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Posted: Mon Jul 7th, 2008 11:24 pm |
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Ian wrote: It was a serious question though. Somebody must know? I'm ready to be enlightened.
One of the key reasons the EU was founded and why the French and Germans have been so closely aligned in it was to reconcile a continent torn apart by the most savage of wars. It was considered that a European affiliation that shared common economic ideals and values would be a continent less likely to tear itself apart again.
It would be hard to say that this aim had not been met - there has been 63 years of peace; it has survived the cold war; it has thrived and grown and it provided a source of inspiration and an apsiration for the ex-Warsaw Pact countries and other countries on the fringes of Europe as they have emerged from their old totalitarian regimes. It has been a source of inspiration and support to the Portuguese and Spanish as they emerged from their own undemocratic pasts. And if Greenpro should say that's because they wanted the EU subsidies I'll say: don't be so bloody condescending.
The Euro is a product of the EU. It is one of the world's strongest currencies, particularly as the oil nations tire of holding the dollar weakened by years of unwise, imprudent economic policies and begin toi hold Euros instead. The EU is also an enormous trade bloc giving the countries of Europe together - if they wish to act together of course - enormous power in a world where the US's economic power will increasingly be challenged by China and then by India and Brazil.
And the ambitions of European politicians who wish to strengthen the EU is largely to give effect to that economic power in other spheres: diplomacy and military power. That seems to me to be an entirely rational, logical ambition.
Like Greenpro I despair of the corruption and the absence of democracy. But that's not the same as blaming Europe for all of our ills...we do make some very misguided policy decisions here and here alone.
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greenpro
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Posted: Tue Jul 8th, 2008 02:07 am |
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Hi Sotto, that's a good post Let's start with the Euro. When Jacques Delors decided in late 1980's to launch the single European currency, it was not aimed primarily at increasing the flow of trade (although that has partly resulted) it was aimed to bring about a political union and create a Europe which was one country, and under one leadership. What the Germans call the Fuhrerprinzip. Under the new EU constitution (well it's not new it's the old one re-hashed) there is to be created a President of Europe. This person will not be elected. He will be appointed solely by officals in the pay of Brussels. Tony Blair has put in for the job but won't get it because the French don't like him. Quite frankly it's an attempt to recreate the Roman Empire (no exaggeration).
The Euro is falling to pieces and being artificially propped up by the central banks of the user nations. There are at least twelve different types of Euro coins, some with heads, some without. The Austrians have Mozart, the Luxembourgers have a picture of the Grand Duke Henri, the Irish have a harp, the Finns have a picture of some swans, the French have a tree, the Germans have their mutant eagle, and so on. Thus the coinage is still national in character, and not at all unified in either the spirit intended or in design.
The Euro banknotes are no better. They eschew the pictures of heads of state, and use instead a series of schematic architectural drawings of bridges and ditches and culverts and so on. Each national bank prints their own, as each nation won't trust a single central EU bank to do it. Each nation has an ID letter on their notes, this identifies where they come from. German bank customers will only accept German Euros. When handed a pile of Euros they sift through them and hand back those printed in Italy, Spain, Portugal, etc. These are seen as weak economies, and the Germans wish to hold their own national Euros as a hedge against possible collapse of the EU. Many Germans still keep a pile of Marks in their houses. Hardly a confirmation of monetary unity, is it?
I have friends in Ireland, Holland, France and Germany. None of them, not one, speaks in support of the Euro. They all regret its introduction and the big wave of price increases /inflation it brought about in each of those nations. The Roman empire worked because only the head of Caesar appeared on the coinage. The empire's success has been the inspiration for wannabes and imitators down the ages.
I'm frightened of empires (and the EU is becoming one and that's its intention) because in the end empires don't work; witness the empire of Russia under Lenin/Stalin, the empire of Germany under Hitler, and so on. All empires become bullies, like the EU, and I don't like being bullied. They become deeply undemocratic, like the EU, and I prefer democracy; government of the people, by the people and for the people. This seems to me a reasonable expectation in the 21st Century. I hope some others agree. E.g. all UK firms are subjected to a flood of Brussels Regulations, 100,000 so far, which must be obeyed despite 91% of these firms having no EU links. Get the picture? It's a dictatorship.
Rome became afflicted by the sclerosis that we see now in so many modern European economies, when the bureaucracy becomes so big that its prime concern becomes self-perpetuation. This is true of the British civil service, the French civil service, and most certainly the huge EU bureaucracy centred on Brussels. They have written themselves a deal unheard of elsewhere. They have protection for life against prosecution for any misdeeds they commit in the service of the EU! In other words the corruption is unstoppable because it can't be prosecuted. Do we really need that in the UK? You can be taking an active part in your own decline and not know what is going on.
If I may quote from the excellent book 'The Dream of Rome': 'One thing in Europe we must accept is that we will never recover that vast Roman political entity, with the face of every citizen turned like a sunflower towards a political centre. That was pre-eminently the achievement of Caesar Augustus, and it seems very unlikely to be repeated. No, we will never reproduce the Roman empire, because to do so would involve the creation of a President with emperor-like status, something the EU is now setting out to do.' (The author was educated in Brussels).
I have travelled widely in Spain, Portugal, Italy and Ireland. Of those many people to whom I spoke, no one, not one, said they had any political belief in the EU, but they did emphasise very strongly the economic benefits of belonging. You can see this yourself if you go to these places. Networks of modern motorways, subway systems, all kinds of major infrastructure not funded at all by the national governments, but funded solely from EU central funds. To make sure everyone knows this there are huge signs beside the roads saying 'Funded by the EU', in other words funded largely by the main contributors, of which we are the second biggest. Thus my own experience tells me that economic reasons were and are the main reason for the membership of these countries. You can't blame them, they're doing very well out of it.
Whilst I wish the people of these nations well, I hope it is not selfish of me to say that there comes a point where the people of Britain should decide for themselves what to do with their own money. And I think that there might be general agreement that there is a great deal to be done in the UK before building roads in Spain or elsewhere.
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Lizzie R
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Posted: Tue Jul 8th, 2008 08:10 am |
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I don't know much about the ins and outs of the EU. But I know it's not a level playing field, that's what tees me off.
I just read that European lorry drivers are scooping up haulage work in the UK because they can fill up on deisel in their home country and do haulage jobs here at a fraction of the cost - many of our hauliers will go under if it continues; especially the smaller ones who can't compete with the likes of Stobart et al. That means more job losses. It's a bloody mess. Gangs are even syphoning fuel from wagons parked up in haulage yards and lorry parks - one little firm up here lost 12 grand's worth last week and had to lay off people. So much for free trade and equal opportunity. We have been suckered.
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Sandman
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Posted: Mon Jul 14th, 2008 05:29 pm |
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Lizze - 'a level playing field' is one of the arguments for creation of the EU/EEC/EC, it has moved out of the economic and into the political, a step too far if you ask me.
Greenpro - hmmmm, very similar views to my own, but dont worry about defence, the UK is likely to sell everyone else arms, we have one of the worlds largest defence industries regarding military export sales. And trade is one of the areas where being in the EU has helped, but was that conditional on being in the EU?
I doubt it very much - we should get out of the EU before it turns into a political beast that devours its member nations.
Sandman
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greenpro
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 01:53 am |
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Sandman, check out where your ammo comes from. Blair shut all three of the UK govt arsenals so now we can't make our own ammo and have to import it! That's cute. Comes a future punch-up and we say, er, would you mind flogging us some ammo please so we can shoot back? Yes, we do export defence kit but it's mainly hi-tech. We could have bought Apache choppers from the Yanks at $12 mill a pop, but Labour said no we'll make 'em here. Result? £15 mill a pop. Nice 'logic' eh?
We do trade with the EU but we import far more from them than we export back, so we're running a trade deficit of billions with the EU. Trade is good but it needs to be reciprocal, we'll buy from you if you buy the same value back from us. We're the second biggest importers of French champagne in the world, but the French buy v.little from us.
Have you seen Sarkozy's trip to Ireland? He went to tell them they got their 'no' vote on the EU constitution wrong, and must hold another one and vote 'yes' next time! Utterly astonishing. Unbelievable bloody gall. (No pun on Gaul). But that's how the EU leadership thinks, sod democracy, do as you're told. Grrrr.
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ExpatinIstanbul
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 04:33 am |
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David B?
This thread is quite scary.
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Cousin Jack Goudger
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 05:19 am |
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Errr......... I don't suppose you all would care to be Yanks?
We'd take you in a heartbeat!
(that is, of course, a weak attempt at humor)
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RC45er
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 02:25 pm |
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I completely agree with you Greenpro and every benefit that the EU has produced could have been done as well or better with a loose alliance of Sovereign States. The idea of the EU is to be a country, the UK and other States cease to exist with what is the UK now split up into European regions reporting directly to the European Government. This is happening on the usual drip, drip basis so that people don't notice it. It is a terrifying vison and we should get out of it quickly but how? It isn't on the table. We looked to Europe in the days of the traitor Edward Heath when we didn't know where we were going as a country post empire but we do now. We would be a prosperous and more importantly free Nation without the EU.
The idea of Sarkozy going to Ireland to fudge a deal to keep the constitution alive and drive another nail into the coffin of democracy makes my blood boil.
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Dresda
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 02:53 pm |
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Can anyone cite more than 1/2 dozen MP's or Euro MP's, who seem to have entered politics to do improve the lot of the rest of us? You may not like the Conservatives, but they are mostly self made people, who do not need any further personal success. The Labour benches are however populated mostly by people who went from university, or the labour 'college' straight into politics. Who do you trust to make important economic, legal and social decisions, folks with worldly experience, or folks who never had a proper job worth a damn, and have no 'real' ability of any kind, such as Prescott?
Parliament seems full of shysters and shirtlifters, but perhaps it always was.
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ExpatinIstanbul
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 03:27 pm |
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So, apparently there are no benefits whatsoever in being a member of the E.U.
All our MP's are totally useless and our govts know nothing at all.
When visiting art galleries do the esteemed members of this board stand with their noses against the pictures?
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nickwiz
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 05:45 pm |
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| So tell us something good about it and make us all feel better?
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Dresda
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 09:14 pm |
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nickwiz wrote: So tell us something good about it and make us all feel better?
errr ..... errr .... errr ... , nope, you got me there !
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greenpro
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 10:29 pm |
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Cousin just back from Norway (fishing trip), says you can't help noticing how there's full employment, the standard of living is high, and no one bitches about the EU because they don't f-----g belong to it. He says they're noticeably happy and cheerful and get on with making a good life and being Norwegian. Switzerland is the same, the two most prosperous countries in Europe aren't in the EU. Can we make it three please?
Two weeks ago I wrote to David Cameron and asked him to give an assurance that if the Tories take office next time round that he would hold a referendum on UK membership of the EU within six months and abide by the result. No reply yet but they've gorn orf on their hols and won't be back for a bit. Blair promised one and it's never been held, lying bastid. Grrr.
Expat, opposing views are good, but let's let the people decide on this one, as it affects all our lives.
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PaulR
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 11:05 pm |
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greenpro wrote: Cousin just back from Norway (fishing trip), says you can't help noticing how there's full employment, the standard of living is high, and no one bitches about the EU because they don't f-----g belong to it. He says they're noticeably happy and cheerful and get on with making a good life and being Norwegian. Switzerland is the same, the two most prosperous countries in Europe aren't in the EU. Can we make it three please?
Two weeks ago I wrote to David Cameron and asked him to give an assurance that if the Tories take office next time round that he would hold a referendum on UK membership of the EU within six months and abide by the result. No reply yet but they've gorn orf on their hols and won't be back for a bit. Blair promised one and it's never been held, lying bastid. Grrr.
Expat, opposing views are good, but let's let the people decide on this one, as it affects all our lives.
Have to take issue with you on that point - Germany and the United Kingdom rank 3rd and 5th respectively in world economies: Switzerland is in the 21st position and Norway is 23rd. The EU, as a whole, is the largest, ahead of the USA (otherwise 1st). Add Switzerland's ($423,938m) and Norway's ($391,498) GDPs together and they're still less than a third the size of the UK's ($2,772,570m)*. Just a thought.
Your assertion makes a good soundbyte, but doesn't stack up with the facts...
*Source: International Monetary Fund list 2007, World Bank list 2007 (this report lists Switzerland as 22nd), CIA World Factbook 2007.
*edit to add fluffiness.
Last edited on Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 11:13 pm by PaulR
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mr goiter
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 03:52 am |
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| Do you know what it is per capita PaulR?
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