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RC45er
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 04:08 am |
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ExpatinIstanbul wrote: So, apparently there are no benefits whatsoever in being a member of the E.U.
All our MP's are totally useless and our govts know nothing at all.
When visiting art galleries do the esteemed members of this board stand with their noses against the pictures?
No, there have been benefits and there are and still will be benefits. The point is that all could be achieved without a new and democracy-free political entity of Europe being created. What we needed was a free trade area with Trade regulators to ensure a level playing field. What we are getting is another massive level of government whose main purpose is to pay itself footballer wages, look after French farmers and keep Africa poor in perpetuity. I'd liken seeing the current monstrosity as the only way forward to going into the gallery, putting your nose against the pictures while wearing a set of blinkers with sun glasses underneath.
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Dresda
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 05:55 pm |
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| We, along with some other nations, seem to have a knack for allowing morons to access political power. All current and prospective MP's and Euro MP's should be given a standard Mensa IQ test, and anyone achieving less than 135/140 should be automatically disqualified from holding any kind of 'public' office whatsoever. That would thin the benches out a bit. I reckon a bench for each party would be more than enough. Would any MP be prepared to accept the question whilst under hypnosois, "why did you want to be an MP". I think not, but it's an interesting idea doncha think? Last edited on Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 11:07 pm by Dresda
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hairnet600
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 09:48 pm |
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is being an mp the only job you CANNOT be sacked froom
they seem to get moved sideways/another dept
(apart from archer - but then hes a right numpty)
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karTER
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 03:30 am |
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hairnet600 wrote: is being an mp the only job you CANNOT be sacked froom
they seem to get moved sideways/another dept
(apart from archer - but then hes a right numpty)
Any civil servant has a job for life.
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RC45er
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 07:08 am |
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hairnet600 wrote: is being an mp the only job you CANNOT be sacked froom
they seem to get moved sideways/another dept
(apart from archer - but then hes a right numpty)
Or need no qualifications to do apart from the ability to lie and haveing a lot of neck?
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nickwiz
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 07:31 am |
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Animal wrote: England in Europe .......
Reading this thread again I got to thinking, that particularly if you visit London these days, It should be Europe is in England! you rarely hear English spoken there without a European accent! I quite like it. Its like going abroad without the hassle of a Ferry.
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Trumpetman21
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 08:30 am |
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Dresda wrote: We, along with some other nations, seem to have a knack for allowing morons to access political power. All current and prospective MP's and Euro MP's should be given a standard Mensa IQ test, and anyone achieving less than 135/140 should be automatically disqualified from holding any kind of 'public' office whatsoever. That would thin the benches out a bit. I reckon a bench for each party would be more than enough. Would any MP be prepared to accept the question whilst under hypnosois, "why did you want to be an MP". I think not, but it's an interesting idea doncha think?
Wahey - I'm OK!
Next stop No 10!!
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Dresda
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 07:01 pm |
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Folks seem reluctant to mention this, so at the risk of being castigated, allow me !
By 1945, Britain was technically bankrupt. Prosecution of the war had cost us everything we had, and more that we didn't have. It would be wrong to state that we 'stood alone' until December 1941, as a lot of our pals took their jackets off as well, and we know who they were, but the point is that because of our steadfastness and resolve, Hitlers Generals knew that the game was up before they invaded Russia. Had we been defeated in 1940, then Hitler would still have been eventually defeated by the Russians, even without our Argtic convoys, and Stalin would have occupied the whole of Europe, including the UK. Imagine that scenario if you will ! So were were skint and in hock to uncle Sam up to our eyeballs. Then came the Marshall' plan, which in simple terms, was the reconstruction of West Germany funded by the Allies. It didn't stop there either, because when the Russkies closed the land routes into West Berlin, we and the Americans mounted a round the clock air lift of everything that the population needed to survive. Then we had the cost of permanent garrisons in West Germany, not to keep the Germans from going on the rampage again, but to defend Western Europe from the Soviets. It's no wonder that we've been skint ever since, and that Sweden and Switzerland prospered through neutrallity, AND WE ARE STILL REPAYING THE DEBT, at least we were a couple of years ago when I last took notice. In addition, the question of what funded the post war German 'economic miracle' may yet be a ticking bomb.
To my knowledge, the only nations that ever expressed gratitude for the fiscal and human cost of our defending and freeing Europe were The Netherlands and Norway, bless 'em, so as far as I'm concerned, the rest of 'em can go bollox. They owe us everything, and we owe them nothing.
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PaulR
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 08:38 pm |
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Actually we finished paying off the war debt a couple of years ago - end of 2006, I think..
The debts from the First War - both those we owed and those owed to us - were effectively forgotten about, written off, when the Second War kicked in.
By the way, if you want to experience gratitude for what we (the British) did for France in the Second War, just spend some time in North West France and get to know people - I've been personally thanked by French people while there, it was quite embarassing. And look at the effort they make to tend our war graves. It would be a mistake to think it's been forgotten.
Last edited on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 08:43 pm by PaulR
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nickwiz
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 08:39 pm |
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| Dead right. plus I might add its time to qualify our thanks to good ole uncle sam. Who only joined the war when forced to and made a tidy profit out of it! Ultimately dismantling our empire and as you say making Britain into a client state. Why Thanks Uncle Sam!
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Dresda
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 09:13 pm |
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PaulR wrote: Actually we finished paying off the war debt a couple of years ago - end of 2006, I think..
The debts from the First War - both those we owed and those owed to us - were effectively forgotten about, written off, when the Second War kicked in.
By the way, if you want to experience gratitude for what we (the British) did for France in the Second War, just spend some time in North West France and get to know people - I've been personally thanked by French people while there, it was quite embarassing. And look at the effort they make to tend our war graves. It would be a mistake to think it's been forgotten.
Like I said, we were still paying the debt when last I took notice a couple of years ago. That would make it errr... ah yes, 2006 maybe? As for the French, they hate us mate. Always have, and always will. We even had to take control of their navy by force. I have no desire to experience gratitude, as I did not participate. I've just been paying for it since I started work in the 60's. Why should it have been a British debt alone I ask ?
I am however proud to say that until being posted East in 1944, my dear old pop was employed by Mr. Churchill for 4 years, working as a demolition contractor. He worked two 8/10 hour shifts each week, mostly on nights, with a general brief to flatten everything east of the Dutch border. How the blind git missed Cologne cathedral is still a mystery.
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PaulR
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 09:17 pm |
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OK. You know best.
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Cousin Jack Goudger
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 09:55 pm |
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nickwiz wrote: Dead right. plus I might add its time to qualify our thanks to good ole uncle sam. Who only joined the war when forced to and made a tidy profit out of it! Ultimately dismantling our empire and as you say making Britain into a client state. Why Thanks Uncle Sam!
You're welcome, mate...... don't hesitate to call if there's anything else we can do for you!Last edited on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 09:56 pm by Cousin Jack Goudger
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nickwiz
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 11:01 pm |
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Ok. Could you get your prez and our PM to become bosom buddies and drag us into a misguided strategicaly stupid war in Iraq please?   Oh yeah you already did that. ok how about Iran then?
You see for all my life I've slowly watched History re written by the USA to the point where you'd think the British and her Colonial allies were mere bit players in a war that we were fighting for near on four years before you guys made up your minds. That tends to make me a bit cynical. I bought a Book "the Victors" by a supposed esteemed historian Stephen E Ambrose that boldly asserted that until DDay the British Army hadn't fought on mainland Europe. After I read that I actualy threw the book away as anyone who claims to be a historian and can write that is an idiot.
Having said all that I'd rather have America as an ally than an enemy. I just wish they'd truly helped us rather than cynicaly bankrupt our nation, ignored our advice that Russia was bad news and stupidly plunged us into a Cold war. I mean my mother and father were living on rations whilst you guys fed the people who'd been trying to kill them and their parents for six years. And when our Govt came asking for financial support they were turned away. It all kind of smarts to those of us that know about these things. Our special relationship doesn't seem all that special after all.
But honestly and on a serious note a debt of thanks is owed to all those from whichever country who died fighting Hitler. I wouldn't argue that at all as I'd have to say all this in Deutsch Otherwise!
Last edited on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 11:18 pm by nickwiz
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Cousin Jack Goudger
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 11:48 pm |
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nickwiz wrote:
Having said all that I'd rather have America as an ally than an enemy. I just wish they'd truly helped us rather than cynicaly bankrupt our nation, ignored our advice that Russia was bad news and stupidly plunged us into a Cold war. I mean my mother and father were living on rations whilst you guys fed the people who'd been trying to kill them and their parents for six years. And when our Govt came asking for financial support they were turned away. It all kind of smarts to those of us that know about these things. Our special relationship doesn't seem all that special after all.
But honestly and on a serious note a debt of thanks is owed to all those from whichever country who died fighting Hitler. I wouldn't argue that at all as I'd have to say all this in Deutsch Otherwise!
Perhaps you're right..... perhaps we should have let the defeated Germans starve during those winters of 1945 through 1950 -- that would have been an enlightened policy that would have endeared us to the world forever...... Also, perhaps we should not have hesitated, should have gone ahead and "popped the cap" on the Russians immediately, gone ahead and dropped our new nuclear bombs on them, killing millions of innnocents, killing the wives and children of our recent wartime ally. Yessir, damn good idea.... much better than a "Cold War." Why didn't we see that?
Yes, we really screwed up: we sent you and France and Russia and China billions upon billions of wartime aid in the form of a loan discounted 90% immediately after the guns went silent, rebuilt a shattered Europe and Japan after fighting a war (belatedly late!) that our longtime culture and history had warned us never, never, never to get into....And also, you see, in the thirties we were still in the grips of a Great Depression. Most of us believed that our participation in WW1 had been a great mistake, and so we had dismantled our army and navy totally ..... weakest force in the developed world. Our military expenditures in terms of percent of GNP from 1920 to 1939 averaged 1.1%, the lowest ever..... took us awhile after the invasion of Poland to build up forces capable of fighting a two-ocean war......
But you're right.... we are a nation unworthy of respect........
And as for the "special relationship?" Don't you fret your pretty little Brit head over it! It wasn't too long after I had begun participating on this forum that I realized that this "Special Relationship" doesn't exist. Probably never did. We are very different people, after all, hey?
So be it............
Last edited on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 01:48 am by Cousin Jack Goudger
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ExpatinIstanbul
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Posted: Fri Jul 25th, 2008 04:39 am |
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Cousin Jack Goudger wrote: nickwiz wrote:
Having said all that I'd rather have America as an ally than an enemy. I just wish they'd truly helped us rather than cynicaly bankrupt our nation, ignored our advice that Russia was bad news and stupidly plunged us into a Cold war. I mean my mother and father were living on rations whilst you guys fed the people who'd been trying to kill them and their parents for six years. And when our Govt came asking for financial support they were turned away. It all kind of smarts to those of us that know about these things. Our special relationship doesn't seem all that special after all.
But honestly and on a serious note a debt of thanks is owed to all those from whichever country who died fighting Hitler. I wouldn't argue that at all as I'd have to say all this in Deutsch Otherwise!
Perhaps you're right..... perhaps we should have let the defeated Germans starve during those winters of 1945 through 1950 -- that would have been an enlightened policy that would have endeared us to the world forever...... Also, perhaps we should not have hesitated, should have gone ahead and "popped the cap" on the Russians immediately, gone ahead and dropped our new nuclear bombs on them, killing millions of innnocents, killing the wives and children of our recent wartime ally. Yessir, damn good idea.... much better than a "Cold War." Why didn't we see that?
Yes, we really screwed up: we sent you and France and Russia and China billions upon billions of wartime aid in the form of a loan discounted 90% immediately after the guns went silent, rebuilt a shattered Europe and Japan after fighting a war (belatedly late!) that our longtime culture and history had warned us never, never, never to get into....And also, you see, in the thirties we were still in the grips of a Great Depression. Most of us believed that our participation in WW1 had been a great mistake, and so we had dismantled our army and navy totally ..... weakest force in the developed world. Our military expenditures in terms of percent of GNP from 1920 to 1939 averaged 1.1%, the lowest ever..... took us awhile after the invasion of Poland to build up forces capable of fighting a two-ocean war......
But you're right.... we are a nation unworthy of respect........
And as for the "special relationship?" Don't you fret your pretty little Brit head over it! It wasn't too long after I had begun participating on this forum that I realized that this "Special Relationship" doesn't exist. Probably never did. We are very different people, after all, hey?
So be it............
Jack, we don't all feel the same. Some of us are happy to recognise the contribution made by the USA and are thankful for it, except of course for the personal contributions made by american servicemen into the love pockets of our ladies.
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workshirk
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Posted: Fri Jul 25th, 2008 04:43 am |
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PaulR wrote: In 1963, President of France Charles de Gaulle announced the French veto on Britain's application to join the European Common Market, the forerunner of the European Union. De Gaulle said the British government lacked 'commitment' to European integration.
Cat amongst the pigeons??? I can just imagine you sitting back with a bottle of wine and watching the fireworks...
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workshirk
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Posted: Fri Jul 25th, 2008 04:51 am |
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karTER wrote: hairnet600 wrote: is being an mp the only job you CANNOT be sacked froom
they seem to get moved sideways/another dept
(apart from archer - but then hes a right numpty)
Any civil servant has a job for life.
And military senior officers only get sacked if someone need to be made an example of; nothing to do with being good, or not, at their job - they have a job???
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nickwiz
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Posted: Fri Jul 25th, 2008 08:55 am |
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ExpatinIstanbul wrote:
Jack, we don't all feel the same. Some of us are happy to recognise the contribution made by the USA and are thankful for it, except of course for the personal contributions made by american servicemen into the love pockets of our ladies.
No As I said for the guys that gave their lives I have total respect. I just get tired of the myths. History is facinating. There are many ways to interpret it. And none are the whole truth. Usualy the truth is buried midway between all the various interpretations. I suppose what I'm trying to point out is that the alliances that developed during the war served the self interest of the nations as well as helped others. Lets be realistic now all the time has passed. Rather than rose tinted.
Yes we couldn't have won without the USA. But Their govt was not acting out of some holy, divine goodness. Their conduct of the war and their relationships with their allies was as cynical and self serving as any of the allied govts. The happy by product of all the political wrangling was that Europe did not become a facist empire. (Though its trying now )
The sad by product is that people died in their millions and for our particular nation we were bankrupted and consigned to the history books as a world power. But At least we were sovereign rather than a Nazi Client state. That hard won freedom by both Young Americans and Commonwealth citizens is, in this country, being given away by successive weak govts. That is a real crime against those that gave their lives.
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RC45er
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Posted: Fri Jul 25th, 2008 10:29 am |
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Jack, Britain and Europe are forever indebted to the US for their part played in ridding Europe of tyranny in two WWs and the cold war. Not only in terms of equipment to fight a war that we would otherwise have lost but in the end troops to finish it years quicker than we could have and to prevent the Russians marching past Berlin and into Western Europe.
I apologise for the lack of knowledge and ingratitude of my fellow countrymen some of whom know patently nothing of the Second World War and the part the US military and Industrial Military machine played in it. That is in basically rescuing our sorry, bedraggled, ill equipped asses and those of the ungrates like our European “Brothers” the Frogs.
Massive respect too to the US troops who fought the Japanese in the Pacific in some of the most vicious hand to hand fighting ever seen on a battlefield and who sacrificed far more in lost lives than we British did in the whole of the war. We owe you guys an incredible debt that the repayment of lend lease could never on its own repay. Respect too for the Marshall plan that kept Europe clothed and fed in the dark days after the guns fell silent and helped guide us on to the prosperity that we enjoy now.
Yes America made fools of us in our Colonial adventures in Egypt and Suez but to the victors the spoils. The US won the second World war, we lost Last edited on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 10:29 am by RC45er
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