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Dresda
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Posted: Tue Aug 5th, 2008 01:32 pm |
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| I take the point Nick, but this poor little lad didn't have the faintest idea what was going on, and must be considered an innocent as well. The adult civilian population were not so guilt free however.
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nickwiz
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Posted: Tue Aug 5th, 2008 01:55 pm |
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True this particular lad probably didn't but those little lads in the Hitler Jugend Panzer division had more of an idea I think.
"By 1943, Nazi leaders began turning the Hitler Youth into a military reserve to draw manpower which had been depleted due to tremendous military losses. In 1943, the 12.SS-Panzer-Division Hitlerjugend, under the command of SS-Brigadeführer Fritz Witt, was formed. The Division was a fully equipped Waffen-SS panzer division, with the majority of the enlisted cadre being drawn from Hitler Youth boys between the ages of sixteen and eighteen. The division was deployed during the Battle of Normandy against the British and Canadian forces to the north of Caen. During the following months, the division earned itself a reputation for ferocity and fanaticism."
The thing about the Nazi regime was that all of the society was engaged. From the Hitler youth to those who turned a blind eye because it was easier to bury your head in the sand. I'm not convinced any of the german people were realy 100% innocent. Thats why the Nazi ideology was sdo poisonous.
Last edited on Tue Aug 5th, 2008 01:58 pm by nickwiz
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RC45er
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Posted: Tue Aug 5th, 2008 06:26 pm |
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Nick, Fair comments and knowledge for me. For sure there was nobody in Nazi Germany who was 100% innocent but were they all guilty?
I accept too that applying modern moral standards is interesting but pointless. That was 1945 and the end of a dreadful war, morals were probably very badly distorted at that time especially for those who had seen attrocities.
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Cousin Jack Goudger
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Posted: Tue Aug 5th, 2008 08:18 pm |
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I'm not intelligent or articulate enough to express what I want to here........
but, what the hell, in for a penny and in for a pound.....
It seems like societies provoke, and individuals suffer. Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were undeniably toxic societies, and eventually those societies caused the deaths of millions of innocent people. These societies could not stand; but, tragically, hundreds of thousands of innocent individuals also died in the effort to stamp them out. It would be nice if wars reverted back to where only armies fought, on grounds free of innocent individuals. But I don't think that's ever going to happen again. What we need is a neutral ground, where warring societies can send armies commensurate with their GNP, for example..... Russia sends 20 men with machine pistols, the U.S. sends 21 (!), Somalia sends one man with a slingshot, etc. etc.
Every four years, like the Olympics, we arrange for these Armies to meet in a desolate place (eastern Wyoming?) where they fight to the death. Last army standing gets to rule the world for four years. A war Olympics, so to speak.
Last edited on Tue Aug 5th, 2008 08:19 pm by Cousin Jack Goudger
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PaulR
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Posted: Tue Aug 5th, 2008 08:58 pm |
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Cousin Jack Goudger wrote: I'm not intelligent or articulate enough to express what I want to here........
but, what the hell, in for a penny and in for a pound.....
It seems like societies provoke, and individuals suffer. Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were undeniably toxic societies, and eventually those societies caused the deaths of millions of innocent people. These societies could not stand; but, tragically, hundreds of thousands of innocent individuals also died in the effort to stamp them out. It would be nice if wars reverted back to where only armies fought, on grounds free of innocent individuals. But I don't think that's ever going to happen again. What we need is a neutral ground, where warring societies can send armies commensurate with their GNP, for example..... Russia sends 20 men with machine pistols, the U.S. sends 21 (!), Somalia sends one man with a slingshot, etc. etc.
Every four years, like the Olympics, we arrange for these Armies to meet in a desolate place (eastern Wyoming?) where they fight to the death. Last army standing gets to rule the world for four years. A war Olympics, so to speak.
That's actually very similar to the system operated throughout the last few centuries - in Europe.
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Breva750
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Posted: Tue Aug 5th, 2008 09:24 pm |
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| We would just send one man with a giant tank of Bundaberg Rum, which he would distribute to all until they were out of it. Then declare the century of the Aussie!!
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greenpro
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Posted: Wed Aug 6th, 2008 12:46 am |
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Better still make the bloody politicians fight it out. Then see how many wars got started. Yeah, el zilcho.
On the debate: did the Germans know about the holocaust, more did than didn't. The first concentration camp was set up at Dachau, just outside Munich. All the off-duty guards drank in the pubs there. What went on in Dachau was common knowledge. There was a camp just outside Berlin, with the same result. There were many others in Germany. It was because so many Germans knew about what was happening that camps got built in Poland, like Auschwitz, Treblinka, Sobibor, etc. But even this didn't stop leaks. It's a common misconception that all Germans involved in the camps were SS. They weren't. A great many were conscripted men from the Wehrmacht. They wrote home about their concerns, and they went home on leave and talked about their experiences.
The Germans post-WW2 have been v.clever at passing all the blame for their atrocities against innocent civilians over to 'the Nazis'. If there were any misdeeds it was always the fault of 'the Nazis'. This is bollox. The Nazi Party was always quite small and it was v. difficult to become a member. It was so highly selective, race-wise, that many couldn't be arsed to apply. You had to prove beyond doubt no trace of Jewry back at least as far as grandparents, and preferably great-grandparents. Yes, Hitler and a caucus of Nazi cronies directed policy, but ordinary Germans carried out those policies, not 'the Nazis'.
The little town of Mussidan in the Dordogne is twinned with my town. I've been there several times. There's a memorial there (on which I always place flowers). The plaque read 'Here fell 50 brave Frenchmen shot by the Germans in June 1944'. The Maquis were active in the vicinity and the krauts took 50 civilians off the street and shot them. In recent years though German tourists have complained that they felt unease because the word 'Germans' implicated all Germans. So the Chamber of Commerce in Mussidan changed the wording to read 'shot by the Nazis'. So now the krauts are happy because they can blame 'the Nazis', and the shopkeepers are happy to take the krauts' money. Much ill-feeling in the town though, specially among the WW2 generation, and those who lost family in that massacre. Go in any bar and ask about it.
So, folks, be careful with your use of the word Nazi, because you can usually and properly substitute the word German, and with good cause.
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PaulR
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Posted: Wed Aug 6th, 2008 10:50 am |
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"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist; And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist; And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew; And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
Pastor Martin Niemöller.
(There are variations: Niemöller said he was not quite sure when he had said the famous words but, if people insist upon citing them, he preferred the version above)Last edited on Wed Aug 6th, 2008 10:51 am by PaulR
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dunkydoda
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Posted: Wed Aug 6th, 2008 09:03 pm |
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If all of us had lived in Germany at the end of the Great War how many could say without fear of contradiction of any pang of conscience that we wouldn't have joined the Wehrmacht, or worked in an armament factory. or voted for the National Socialist party, or had a son who joined the Hiter Youth?
I can't.
Not because I now, in 2008 aged 39 a father, married, employed and relatively content, hold any affinity to Nazi policies on race, expansion or blinkered nationalism but because I am intelligent enough to know that you have to live in the society around you. 99% of those people who live in a society hold no power whatso ever to change or mould it.
If we elect Cameron and his mob the next time round and they too have a Master plan and execute it as succesfully and totally as the National Socialists did we too will find ourselves faced with the dilemas faced by the German people from 1933 onwards. Go along, turn a blind eye, pretend it will never get as bad as it is, hope for the best, hope it isn't you next.
The Nazi leadership were evil but they also created a society that allowed normal everday people to do evil things or to react with casual disregard for those things that they saw or knew of around them.
The greatest lesson that we should learn from WWII is that it can happen here.
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greenpro
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Posted: Wed Aug 6th, 2008 11:12 pm |
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| dunky: Tick, VG, 10/10.
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PaulR
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Posted: Thu Aug 7th, 2008 03:09 am |
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dunkydoda wrote: If all of us had lived in Germany at the end of the Great War how many could say without fear of contradiction of any pang of conscience that we wouldn't have joined the Wehrmacht, or worked in an armament factory. or voted for the National Socialist party, or had a son who joined the Hiter Youth?
I can't.
Not because I now, in 2008 aged 39 a father, married, employed and relatively content, hold any affinity to Nazi policies on race, expansion or blinkered nationalism but because I am intelligent enough to know that you have to live in the society around you. 99% of those people who live in a society hold no power whatso ever to change or mould it.
If we elect Cameron and his mob the next time round and they too have a Master plan and execute it as succesfully and totally as the National Socialists did we too will find ourselves faced with the dilemas faced by the German people from 1933 onwards. Go along, turn a blind eye, pretend it will never get as bad as it is, hope for the best, hope it isn't you next.
The Nazi leadership were evil but they also created a society that allowed normal everday people to do evil things or to react with casual disregard for those things that they saw or knew of around them.
The greatest lesson that we should learn from WWII is that it can happen here.
How true.
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RC45er
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Posted: Thu Aug 7th, 2008 07:54 am |
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Dunky, very true but you don't need to look back to post WW1 Germany. It was until recently, when the theocracy was broken, impossible to live in many areas of Ireland without being a practising Catholic. My sister is married to an Irish lad and lives in Sligo so I'm aware of what it can be like.
Has anybody read The Book Thief btw. It's an unbelievable book based around the life of youngsters in Nazi Germany.
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greenpro
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Posted: Thu Aug 7th, 2008 02:32 pm |
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Most of the British upper class were staunchly pro-Hitler. The Times was the newspaper of record in those days, much more so than today, and Dawson the editor used that paper to sway opinion here towards favouring Hitler and his policies. It was widely assumed that to be rid of the Jews was no bad thing. (Though extermination was not part of that view). The plan favoured was to deport the lot to Madagascar.
Prince Charles Edward, first cousin to our King Edward VIII, lived in Germany permanently and was Hitler's adviser on British affairs. He visited England for talks with Edward VIII. They met three times, the first on the day after the death of King George V, Edward VIII's father. Prince Charles reported back to Hitler that our new King believed an alliance with Germany should be 'the guiding principle of British foreign policy'. And 'The King is resolved to concentrate the business of government on himself.' In other words, diminish the role of Parliament. When Prime Minister Baldwin suggested that he, Baldwin, should go to Germany for talks with Hitler, Edward VIII dismissed the idea with these words 'Who is King here? Baldwin or I? I wish to talk to Hitler and will do so here or in Germany'. Baldwin then cleverly manouvered Edward off the throne before he could do worse damage.
But in 1937 as Duke of Windsor he visited Germany for two weeks. He met Hitler, Goering and Goebbels, greeting Hitler with the Nazi salute. His resident German cousin Prince Charles gave a gala dinner in the Duke's honour. The New York Times reported 'This gesture and remarks during the last two weeks have demonstrated adequately that the abdication did rob Germany of a firm friend, if not indeed a devoted admirer on the British throne.' As early as 1923 when Hitler wrote 'Mein Kampf' he said 'In Europe there can be for Germany in the predictable future only two allies, England and Italy.'
The war started in Sept 1939, but in June 1940 contacts were made between the British Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax and Ribbentrop, Hitler's Foreign Minister, who was confident a settlement between Germany and Britain could be reached. At the same time negotiations were carried out with the pro-German Duke of Windsor. When France fell he moved to Spain, where the Germans contacted the Duke and considered offering him 50 million francs to stay within reach of Germany. To get him off mainland Europe Churchill appointed him Governor of the Bahamas. But even after accepting the post the Duke dawdled in Portugal for three while continuing to negotiate with the Germans. As a sworn minister of the crown these contacts were entirely traitorous.
Late in July 1940 Ribbentrop offered Edward the British throne, which he would reoccupy after the inevitable German conquest of Britain. The offer was made in Lisbon and Ribbentrop said 'In such a case Germany would be willing to co-operate most closely with the Duke and to clear the way for any desire expressed by the Duke and Duchess.' According to the German ambassador in Madrid 'The Duke hesitated even up to the last moment. The ship had to delay its departure on that account.' Even in the middle of August 1940, with the Battle of Britain at its height, and us hanging on by our fingernails, the Duke was still in communication with his German friends from his new base in the Bahamas! The man should have been shot as a traitor, but he was the ex-King with friends in high places, so a blind eye was turned.
In 1942 Hitler's Deputy, Rudolf Hess, parachuted into Scotland. He planned to have talks with the Duke of Hamilton, then a Group Captain in the RAF, and a known sympathiser of the German cause. The idea was to end the conflict between the two nations on an amicable basis. Happily Hess got bunged in the Tower of London, where, I'm glad to say, he was interviewed by Lord Simon, a Jew. Hess was not amused.
After the war ended in 1945 King George VI (the present Queen's father) took steps to ensure that the Duke of Windsor's correspondence with his cousins in Germany, Charles Edward and Prince Philip of Hesse (ex-Lieutenant General in the SS) was collected and suppressed, so the British public might continue to believe the fiction that we had an English royal family. When the spy Anthony Blunt was unmasked, The Times said 'His treachery was trivial compared to the enormity of the Windsors' wartime activities.' In 1945 and 1953 Churchill took action to suppress the relevant documents when the Nazi Foreign Ministry file on pre-war Anglo-German relations was published. The extent of the German background and influence on our royal family is little understood. Prince Philip's first language was German, and both his sisters lived happily throughout WW2 in Nazi Germany. He had to be taught English.
As others on here have observed, authoritarianism (call it fascism if you like) comes upon us by stealth and has to be guarded against most vigilantly. So Thatcher's 'crush the unions' approach was entirely authoritarian in its nature, which is one of the many reasons I dislike the lady.
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RC45er
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Posted: Thu Aug 7th, 2008 02:50 pm |
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greenpro wrote:
As others on here have observed, authoritarianism (call it fascism if you like) comes upon us by stealth and has to be guarded against most vigilantly. So Thatcher's 'crush the unions' approach was entirely authoritarian in its nature, which is one of the many reasons I dislike the lady.
But Thatcher didn't crush the Unions nor Union practice only those that were undemocrataic and authoritarian (and absolutely fascist) themselves.
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greenpro
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Posted: Thu Aug 7th, 2008 03:21 pm |
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| The unions are working class organisations? Or have I got that wrong? Did their memberships increase or decrease under Thatcher? QED.
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RC45er
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Posted: Thu Aug 7th, 2008 06:13 pm |
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| And equally easy answered. The Unions in the end didn't represent the working class but used them. Their membership? I don't know and not really relevant as when being in a Union is a matter of choice then market forces will dictate. In the early 70's I couldn't work unless I was in the Union, they used my vote in a bloc system, they were anti democracy and even part of a plot to overthrow elected government. I go out now and again with an ex-Girling shop steward who regales me with tales of them bringing British industry to it's knees with lightning primary and secondary strikes and picketing. He also qualifies it by using adjectives like disgraceful and unbelievable looking back.
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greenpro
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Posted: Fri Aug 8th, 2008 01:00 am |
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union activity is never ideal, and no claims are made that it was or is. I have belonged to a union, and it was entirely clear to me that if individuals tried to negotiate improvements in pay and conditions, then they would be laughed at. Only by the workforce acting in concert could improvements be brought about. I've also been in management at a middling high level for a company with 7,000 staff world wide. Management never gave anything at all of its own free will. They sought ways to screw more output from the workforce without any reciprocation at all. Like the arbitrary removal of five days holiday and the substitution of five days work instead, without any form of compensation for those five extra days worked. Get the picture? Unions didn't spring up overnight, it took a century before the workers in Britain learned, through bitter experience, that only joint action brought improvements. In the past employers have been harsh in the extreme. Even today very few firms have 'flat management'. That is, no vertical alignment of personnel ranked by status. Some firms do run 'flat management', there's only one cafeteria for all staff, and everyone uses it. They all wear the same overalls too so you can't tell who's management and who's not. Yet I know a firm that has four levels of dining in the same building, works canteen, lower-middle management cafeteria, upper-middle management dining room, and executives' dining room with silver cutlery, fine crystal, the best china and waitress service. So that's all as it should be then. The peasants down the bottom where they belong, the paper-pushers next in two levels, then the bosses where they belong, at the top with the good wines and multi-course meals. Gee, ain't democracy nice.
Anyway, none of this belongs here. Thatcher's got her own thread, so your hagiography can continue there.
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