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PaulR
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Posted: Fri Jul 4th, 2008 04:22 pm |
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| In 1963, President of France Charles de Gaulle announced the French veto on Britain's application to join the European Common Market, the forerunner of the European Union. De Gaulle said the British government lacked 'commitment' to European integration.
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nomad
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Posted: Fri Jul 4th, 2008 05:10 pm |
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he was right back then in the 60's the government was and I believe still is thopugh it is weakening...
The British people on the other hand are more open minded however wish to be self determined and not ruled by Germany ever 
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karTER
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Posted: Fri Jul 4th, 2008 07:32 pm |
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| I'm not quite sure the situation is any better now.
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nickwiz
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Posted: Fri Jul 4th, 2008 11:31 pm |
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| The Irish are the latest to say no and the Eurocrats are pressing the Irish Govt to ignore its people. Democracy my fuggin arse. We're piling into countries imposing democracy (strange idea that one huh? contradiction in terms ) and yet our Euro masters are completely ignoring democratic principles. Its high high order bollocks!
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greenpro
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Posted: Sat Jul 5th, 2008 12:45 am |
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When the Common Market was the Common Market it was worth joining. It was meant to facilitate trade between European nations. It had no political ambitions to dominate its members. But it's grown into a tyrannical political monster (I choose those words carefully). We have signed away so much of our democratic rights that now 75% of all UK 'laws' are edicts issued from Brussels, which we have to obey. We and our Parliament have no say in the matter. Westminster is forced to rubber stamp what Brussels sends, because the UK does not have the power any longer to decide its own affairs. Trade, post office closures, VAT, fuel taxes, immigration, policing and farming are all controlled by the EU.
If the EU Constitution is ratified we'll get an EU Foreign Minister (not elected by us) and an EU Diplomatic Service to which ours will be subservient. This relegates us to the level of Luxembourg. (Population 600,000 compared to our 60,000,000).
The total cost of being in the EU is equivalent to £873 per person per year.
The two richest countries in Europe, Norway and Switzerland, aren't even in the EU and have benefitted greatly by staying out.
Our tax system is the second most complicated in the world. By leaving the EU and saving the lost billions every year, we can make tax simpler, and cut taxes without hurting services.
The open borders policy forced on us by the EU produces a situation equivalent to a new city the size of Birmingham every 5 years.
The EU's Bologna Process will enforce 5 year degree courses, and thus even more debt for students, and fewer taking on such courses.
100,000 Brussels edicts so far run almost all of our lives. I don't like that. And I dislike it because it's not democratic. It's as simple as that. Each people has a right to govern themselves. We have given almost all of that away, sleep-walking into submission and being conned out of our reasonable rights.
The EU Constitution (of which I have two copies) does in fact include a means by which member nations may choose to leave. But the process (as they see it) takes two years and involves immense fines running into the many billions. In other words they'll bleed you dry before you go. Knickers to that. Tell 'em we're leaving and do so all in a day. And that day ought to be called Independence Day and become a national holiday.
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When you hear people being anti-EU it does NOT mean they are anti-Europe. I love all things European, enjoy travelling there and meeting the people, and have good French, German and Dutch friends. Co-operation between Europe's nations is great, specially in trade and cultural matters. But I don't want to tell the French how to run their country, nor the Germans, it would be incredibly rude and bombastic if I were to say I wanted to do that. By the same token I cannot see why we should be governed by a huge bureaucracy of unelected officials, so corrupt that a tenth of the EU budget disappears each year (that's billions), and no firm of auditors has been found for eleven years who are willing to sign off the EU accounts as a true record of income and spending.
No thanks; let's leave please, and the sooner the better.
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RC45er
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Posted: Sat Jul 5th, 2008 04:22 am |
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| Greenpro, top post. I believe that we can and should get out of the EU but how will our political masters do it? It's the ultimate trough for them. Let's have a vote.
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greenpro
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Posted: Sat Jul 5th, 2008 09:36 am |
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RC45er how right you are, mate. Let's have a vote. The Labour government promised, in writing, in their election manifesto to hold a referendum on Britain's membership of the EU. It's never happened, and it never will, because too many Labour lick-spittles are greasing their own pockets. The only way for the people to decide is to dump Labour and tell the next hopefuls that they will not get in unless they enter into a legally binding contract to hold such a referendum. Legally binding means sworn before the High Court and published widely throughout the land.
But I'm an eternal sceptic. Meanwhile let's vote MP's another pay/expenses rise. Clearly they need it. And don't make them accountable for how they spend your money. That would be too much to ask. Grrr.
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Dresda
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Posted: Sat Jul 5th, 2008 12:29 pm |
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| You have it right pro ... tariff free trade? ... fine. All the other stuff is just bollocks, created by, and for the self agrandisment of a relatively small group of insiders, who would not last two minutes in a commercial environment.
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dave1450
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Posted: Sat Jul 5th, 2008 04:09 pm |
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| Not much support for the EC project then. How come we are still in it?
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wizenedoldprune
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Posted: Sat Jul 5th, 2008 10:17 pm |
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Love Europe, hate the beaurocrats, I really think of myself as aEuropean, but I reject nanny politics and the franco-german empire builders.
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Breva750
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Posted: Sun Jul 6th, 2008 12:03 am |
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| Norway and Switzerland are not great examples are they?? Somewhat unusual economies....
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greenpro
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Posted: Sun Jul 6th, 2008 01:06 am |
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The point is, Breva, that they run their economies how they choose to run them. They've done well by being out of the EU, they govern themselves, they trade happily with all the nations of Europe and elsewhere, and nobody tells them what to do or fork out billions into a central pot, the spending from which is not in the least controlled by the contributors, but by the mass of unelected parasites in Brussels.
Britain is the second biggest contributor to the EU budget, it costs us a f-----g fortune every year, and out of it we get a representation within the EU of less than 9% of the MEP's. So they're all entirely happy to take the billions from the stupid Brits, who mindlessly continue to cough it up, while we're shutting wards and hospitals, post offices (by EU directive), have a failing rail and road system, rampant crime, uncontrolled immigration (caused directly by the EU), some of the highest taxes in Europe, and the highest fuel prices in Europe. VAT, by the way, is an EU imposed tax. Before that we had something called Purchase Tax, which, as its name implies, was a variable scale of tax on objects bought (like cars), but did not apply to services like VAT does. Every penny of money taken in by our Customs & Excise goes straight into the EU sinkhole; we don't see a penny of it. So next time you're paying import duty on something, and think that's tax money for use by the British people, forget it, it goes into the ever-gaping clutches of the Brussels bureaucrats.
Grrr 
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johnktm
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Posted: Sun Jul 6th, 2008 11:49 pm |
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| Are any of the viable politcal parties indicating they would withdraw from the EU if a referendum showed it was the public wish?
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greenpro
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Posted: Mon Jul 7th, 2008 01:04 am |
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depends how you mean viable. The 4th biggest party in the UK after Tory, Labour, LibDem, is UKIP the United Kingdom Independence Party. Their central policy is to get a referendum held and if, as it probably will, show an expressed democratic wish to leave the EU, then UKIP would take the UK out of the EU at once, no hanging about, no asking anyone's permission. They are not a 'one policy' party, they have a whole range of good ideas about how Britain should be run once out of the EU. These include a range of good policies under the heading of Mini-Gov, that is minimising government's role at the national and regional level, and getting more of it at a level where people can have some say in what affects their lives. Mini-Gov means cutting big chunks out of the civil service, no bad thing.
UKIP would stop the fake 'contracts' currently rigged against the UK within the EU. E.g. EU regs require that tenders for contracts must be thrown open to all EU countries. The major city of Lille in northern France needed to renew completely its outdated bus system. Several firms around the EU tendered for this big contract, including one from the UK. The UK tender was a clear winner on price and quality. This obliged the French, under EU rules, to place the contract with the British bus makers. Did they do it? Did they hell. Here's how they got out of it. They bought one bus from us and put it in a shed in Lille. They bought the rest in France, at much greater cost, and which everyone knew they were going to do anyway.
The French and Germans have steadily bought up our energy utilities. You might get your electricity from EDF, Electricity de France. How did they con the UK government into allowing foreign control of our energy supplies? Easy. EDF said that if our government allowed the French control of UK energy then they promised to buy all the relevant equipment here within the UK, transformers, cabling, etc. Have they done so? Have they bollox. Not one item of the EDF operation here has been sourced within the UK; it's all made in France, naturally.
For two world wars Britain has made a fair fist of defending these islands. Not any more. There were three royal arsenals in Britain which made all our ammunition for the armed forces. Blair shut all three down and we now have to buy our ammo from foreign sources. That's handy, isn't it? If there's a punch-up we have to say, er, would you mind flogging us some ammo please so we can shoot back at people?
Under the EU Common Agricultural Policy large subsidies are avilable to small farmers. The UK is a place of efficient, cost-effective farming, most of the farms being of more than 100 acres. Most of France and Italy, and others, have tiny small-holdings of less than 100 acres. So under French and Italian pressure no subsidies are payable to farms over 100 acres, only to farms smaller than that, which means almost all French and Italian farmers have their hands in the EU bucket and get good payouts from it. Each cow in the EU is subsidised at £1.70 per week, more than most third world people get to live on. I know a French farmer who has a small-holding. He borrows 50 or so cattle from a neighbour, puts them in his field, takes a photo of them there, and hands them back. Then uses that 'evidence' to claim the subsidy on 50 cattle he keeps on his land but in reality doesn't own. This goes on all over France, Italy and elsewhere; it's very commonplace.
A grant is available to olive growers. The amount claimed on olive plantations in Italy exceeds by far the total acreage which actually exist there. The amount of this fraudulent over-claiming was brought to light by a study of shots taken from satellites.
The graft and corruption within the EU is rampant. Of 100 major cases of corruption identified so far only 2 of them have come to court, and they resulted in a slap on the wrist.
Europol, the EU's own police, takes precedence over ours, and can come here and arrest you and take you away abroad, without any recourse on your part to the UK court system. The Europol base is in the ex-Gestapo Headquarters in the Hague, which seems appropriate. They are unaccountable to anyone, and even MEP's may not have an oversight of their operations. They can bug your phones, read your e-mails and mail, and don't have to ask any UK people for permission to do so.
Key point to grab hold of: all EU law is based on Napoleonic Law. (Ours isn't). Under EU law you may do only what the law says you can do.
This is the complete opposite of ours. In the UK you can do anything you like as long as you don't break the laws. Which means you can live a more or less free existence unless you're a stupid criminal and get banged up.
EU law takes away our jury system and replaces it with three judges. Our jury system stems from Magna Carta 1215 and is one of the most basic freedoms we have.
And so on, the list is endless, and it's all appalling and largely not yet understood properly by the dozy Brits, but unless this nation wakes up soon there won't be a nation left. The name England does not appear on the EU maps in Brussels, it's just a number as one of the numbered regions within the EU.
Anyway, if the Tories won't play ball on a referendum, vote UKIP. The Tories are a crafty bunch though. They know that some Tory MP's are what is known as 'EU Sceptics' and would press for a referendum. Many more are pro-EU because they know that once they're in they'll get on the EU gravy train. Neil Kinnock (failed Labour MP) is an EU official on £300,000 and so is his wife on the same salary, so they pocket £600,000 of your money. Peter Mandelson, failed Labour MP, is a trade minister in the EU on £500,000 p.a. of your money. And so the list goes on.
The Tories will claim that a significant portion of their party is 'Euro-Sceptic' and con people into thinking that they'll resist what the EU is doing to us. This is complete cobblers. It's impossible to 'resist' the EU from inside it. We have no power to do so. The constitution is devised to prevent this. The only way forward for the UK is OUT of the EU and the sooner the better.
Better stop, I have, er, 'gone on' a bit, but you get the picture.
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Suzuki Biker
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Posted: Mon Jul 7th, 2008 07:27 am |
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Does Britain want to be governed by the Frogs or Krauts?
I don't think so.
But me thinks its too late to do anything about it>
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johnktm
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Posted: Mon Jul 7th, 2008 09:16 am |
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Thanks Greenpro,I have had a look at their web site and enquired about polices and candidates in my area,they certainly seem to reflect more of my way of thinking as to the way Britain should be heading in the future.
Do you reckon they have a genuine chance of taking sufficient seats to make a difference?
Last edited on Mon Jul 7th, 2008 09:19 am by johnktm
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Sniffer
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Posted: Mon Jul 7th, 2008 09:21 am |
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greenpro wrote: depends how you mean viable. ................................
Better stop, I have, er, 'gone on' a bit, but you get the picture.
Great post and very interesting reading !
Last edited on Mon Jul 7th, 2008 09:22 am by Sniffer
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Ian
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Posted: Mon Jul 7th, 2008 09:26 am |
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The common market was a good idea but it's gone bad in my opinion. If we could have concentrated on trade and stopped short of a European Parliament then that would have been fine. Eroding member states' rights to make their own decisions internally using their own elected representatives in any way is something I am fundamentally against.
How could we go back from where we are now? So much has been done to integrate us into Europe that isolation would be very hard for us now. Any vote on Europe could spell catastrophe for Britain because we would almost certainly vote resoundingly in favour of separation. But staying in doesn't look a great option for us either.
I am in some ignorance of how Europe works in Britain's favour, I must confess. Perhaps there is somebody here who is better informed who could enlighten us?
What exactly do we get out of being in the EEC that is of any advantage to us at all?
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johnktm
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Posted: Mon Jul 7th, 2008 09:29 am |
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Ian wrote: The common market was a good idea but it's gone bad in my opinion. If we could have concentrated on trade and stopped short of a European Parliament then that would have been fine. Eroding member states' rights to make their own decisions internally using their own elected representatives in any way is something I am fundamentally against.
How could we go back from where we are now? So much has been done to integrate us into Europe that isolation would be very hard for us now. Any vote on Europe could spell catastrophe for Britain because we would almost certainly vote resoundingly in favour of separation. But staying in doesn't look a great option for us either.
I am in some ignorance of how Europe works in Britain's favour, I must confess. Perhaps there is somebody here who is better informed who could enlighten us?
What exactly do we get out of being in the EEC that is of any advantage to us at all?
Good question,anybody really know?
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Suzuki Biker
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Posted: Mon Jul 7th, 2008 09:36 am |
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| Sweet FA ie, Fuck All !
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