| Author | Post |
|---|
whitedove
Forum Member
| Joined: | Mon Mar 17th, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 4 |
| Occupation: | | | My bikes: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Mar 17th, 2008 03:59 pm |
|
BMW K1200S CRASH - ABS SERVO BRAKE FAILURE?
I SURVIVED, JUST, BUT WILL BE DISABLED FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE
The brakes on my BMW K1200S locked the road wheel[s] solid under no provocation whatsoever. I simply carressed the front brake lever ever so lightly. I also released the brake lever with immediate effect. However, the brakes continued to remain locked
I believe that the BMW K1200S ABS servo brake system most probably failed
Does any body know of others who have suffered the same fate? If so, we would be delighted should you provide us with contact details with a view to getting together to prove fault against BMW in the hope that other BMW users do not suffer a similar of worst fate than I did
Many thanks to all
whitedive
Last edited on Tue Mar 18th, 2008 01:51 pm by whitedove
|
dooley
Forum Member
| Joined: | Sat Jun 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | London, United Kingdom |
| Posts: | 3971 |
| Occupation: | 3rd rate shamus | | My bikes: | CBF600CTDi |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Mar 17th, 2008 04:34 pm |
|
how would that work, i thought abs could only release pressure
____________________
"And I wonder how long I'll hang around
Before I go insane
Before I break down
And get gone again"
|
bikerbill
Banned
| Joined: | Mon Apr 9th, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 60 |
| Occupation: | | | My bikes: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Mar 17th, 2008 04:41 pm |
|
| BMW have now stopped producing their servo assisted brakes. I believe they had a lot of problems. It sounds like the servo's failed to respond to the release in brake pressure, which would mean as you slow, the pressure would remain meaning the wheel would lock. In theory the ABS should take care of that, but as the whole system is integrated, one fault could cause another. I'd get someone independant to carry out a check of the whole braking system.
|
Pussyhorse
Forum Member
|
Posted: Mon Mar 17th, 2008 04:45 pm |
|
BMW recently ditched the servo assisted brakes.
I never had any problems with the ones on my old GSA, but have read of failures. All the failures I read of were where the servo died and the rider was left with the fucking useless residual braking.
Saying 'I believe the servo most probably failed' is very vague.
If I was you I wouldn't be spamming forums with this sort of thing until I was sure that it was the servo that failed on my bike.
*edit* too slow.Last edited on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 04:46 pm by Pussyhorse
____________________
Filling a much needed void.
|
ExpatinIstanbul
Forum Member
| Joined: | Mon Jan 15th, 2007 |
| Location: | Istanbul, Turkey |
| Posts: | 1352 |
| Occupation: | Publisher | | My bikes: | '05 BMW R1200GS in Red |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Mon Mar 17th, 2008 06:43 pm |
|
Same happened to me with my 1200gs. Luckily I wasn't riding it at the time. I was pushing it along my garden path, and without even touching the brakes they both locked on, the ignition was on but the engine not running. The ABS warning light started flashing furiously and checking the manual I read that Ishouldn't ride it until checked over by BMW. I called out a recovery truck and by the time it arrived the brakes had freed themselves, not taking any chances I had it taken anyway. The next day I went to the service centre and was told there were no faults at all according to the diagnostics computer and their technicians had found nothing that would cause such a problem. They did confirm, I don't know how, that it was the servo system and not the ABS, that locked the brakes on.
According to BMW here, they have not had any similar faults and after contacting the German headquarters they said there had been no other reports of the same problem from anywhere else. It strikes me as a little strange that they dropped the servo quite quickly, rather than developing and improving it, which a company like BMW who thrive on introducing and advancing technology would I think have been more likely to do. Something has the smell of fish about it.
____________________
Book of the Week! - Handbook of Neurologic Rating Scales. Buyers also bought Behavioral Aspects of Epilepsy. They were doctors probably.
|
Chiara
Forum Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 21st, 2006 |
| Location: | Sacramento, California USA |
| Posts: | 1146 |
| Occupation: | Land Surveyor | | My bikes: | K1200R |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Mar 17th, 2008 07:37 pm |
|
I've never heard of this happening before. Whitedove, as I'm sure your already aware, normally if the servos aren't working the braking force is reduced drastically.
Being a K1200R owner, I'm interested to know if anyone else has experienced this, so I linked this thread on bmwforums.net & k-bikes.com
http://www.k-bikes.com/forums/showthread.php?p=100817#post100817
http://www.bmwforums.net/forums/index.php?topic=4083.new#new
I'm sorry this happened to you. Please let us know if you learn some additional info.
Thanks,
Michael
|
bikerbill
Banned
| Joined: | Mon Apr 9th, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 60 |
| Occupation: | | | My bikes: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Mar 17th, 2008 09:32 pm |
|
| Problems with BMW's integrated braking system are quite widely reported, although usually what happens is the servo's go, leaving what BMW tactfully describe as "residual braking" If you want an idea of what that feels like, run your car down a hill with the engine off, and then see how effective the brakes are. This is something new though. Would be very interested to know how you get on.
|
whitedove
Forum Member
| Joined: | Mon Mar 17th, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 4 |
| Occupation: | | | My bikes: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2008 01:41 pm |
|
Thank you to all for your input
I have seen reports of at least two claimed failures with respect to this type of BMW ABS servo braking system, including those as commented upon by 'bikerbill' and 'ExpatinIstanbul' earlier within this forum thread. Comments include either the failure of the servo resulting in 'residual' or 'fail safe' braking only [in respect of which I have seen derisory comments [including those from 'Pussyhorse' and from 'bikerbill'] or resulting in the locking of the brakes and therefore the road wheels, which is what I believe occurred in this case [see the comments from 'ExpatinIstanbul']
It was a dry, warm and sunny day with nothing that could even remotely be considered to be 'slippery' apparent on the road surface. The BMW K1200S was upright [therefore not angled over in a corner]. The very lightest possible touch on the brake lever resulted in the immediate locking of the brake[s] and therefore the road wheel[s]. The brake lever was immediately released. However, the brake[s] and wheel[s] remained locked solid
Eye witness reports comment upon having seen the wheel[s] locking, for no apparent reason, and that it is this that caused the crash. The police report that they witnessed and measured the tyre track marks on the road caused by the locked wheel[s], which caused the crash. It is interesting to consider that , of course, under no circumstances should a correctly functioning ABS braking system be able to lock a brake nor a wheel.
I will spare you the details of my injuries. They are not pretty. I survived ......... just. I have only just been released from hospital again following the latest surgery. Further operations are due to follow once I have recovered sufficiently from the latest surgery. It is going to continue to be a long, hard, uncomfortable haul. As previously mentioned, at best, I am now handicapped for the rest of my life
Again, including as commented upon by 'bikerbill' and 'ExpatinIstanbul' earlier within this forum thread, it is interesting to hear that BMW have dropped this ABS servo braking system from the BMW K1200S and other previously similarly equipped machines. Why is this? Especially following BMW's fanfare with respect to the benefits of the ABS servo braking system including with respect to the enhanced 'safety' aspect, it does indeed appear to be 'strange' that an organisation such as BMW, with their record and reputation, did not continue to 'develop' and 'improve' it. When one considers what must have been involved for BMW to drop the ABS servo system, it must surely also have been rather expensive for them to so do. BMW would presumably almost certainly not have taken this action without some extremely good reason. I have heard of no official BMW 'reason' with respect to why they have quietly dropped the ABS servo system. Has anybody out there seen any statement from BMW in this respect?
I should make it entirely clear that I am certainly not trying to scare any of you out there. However, of course, should this type of BMW ABS servo braking system have a problem, it would be only reasonable for steps to be taken for it to become public knowledge and to ensure that nobody else suffers a fate similar to the one that I have, or potentially worse
Is anybody therefore able to assist with the following question[s] please:
1] are you able to provide a list of similar incidents?
2] does anybody know of a list of people who have experienced similar problems?
3] is anybody aware of a suitably qualified person capable of correctly testing the on board records relating to this type of BMW ABS servo braking system?
4] any other information and/or assistance would be gratefully received
Thank you all for your kind assistanceLast edited on Tue Mar 18th, 2008 01:49 pm by whitedove
|
ExpatinIstanbul
Forum Member
| Joined: | Mon Jan 15th, 2007 |
| Location: | Istanbul, Turkey |
| Posts: | 1352 |
| Occupation: | Publisher | | My bikes: | '05 BMW R1200GS in Red |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2008 01:55 pm |
|
If you are gathering data for a legal case, then you might find it difficult. The technician I dealt with works for the official BMW importer in Turkey, and even he got the standard "no faults reported" when he contact the factory to find out if there was a history of problems. There might well be something hidden deep in the head office's archive, that shows a serious flaw in the system but I doubt it'll ever see the light of day.
Your only recourse might be to stick a bayonet on a Lee Enfield 303 and stick it up 'em. They don't like it up 'em you see.
____________________
Book of the Week! - Handbook of Neurologic Rating Scales. Buyers also bought Behavioral Aspects of Epilepsy. They were doctors probably.
|
bikerbill
Banned
| Joined: | Mon Apr 9th, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 60 |
| Occupation: | | | My bikes: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2008 05:46 pm |
|
Whitedove.
Your insurers are legally bound to fully investigate your claim, which would mean having the bike inspected. Proving that the servo's failed might be diffucult if, since the accident, they have self rectified, however if you locked up, then there will be indesputable evidence of this both on the tyre, and on the road, (tyre tread, or "skid" marks). The wheels on an ABS bike should not have locked, so at least it would be very easy to take BMW to task on that aspect. The bike itself is the key to your claim of system malfunction/defect and you need to get it independantly examined asap.
|
dermeister
Forum Member
| Joined: | Fri Mar 21st, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 1 |
| Occupation: | | | My bikes: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Mar 22nd, 2008 11:11 am |
|
The German Federal Prosecutor just dropped the case on 03/10/2008. He was investigating for about two years. This is a copy of the reasons he dropped the case:
Einstellungsbescheid vom 10.03.2008 (PDF, 169KB), German language!
This is an article about the investigation, which is now stopped:
http://de.indymedia.org/2008/03/211071.shtml
The problem with the brakes is, that there is no time stamp but a milage stamp stored with the fauts. But the milage stamp is only logged every 8 Kilometers! So the experts never know when the fault really happend.
In addition some of the bikes that crashed did not show any logged fault. That dosn't mean there is no fault, but there is no proof.
These brakes are dangerous. You never know when they will kill you. But at least we in Germany do know for sure: They will never ever be prosecuted! The case is dropped for now and in the future.
|
ExpatinIstanbul
Forum Member
| Joined: | Mon Jan 15th, 2007 |
| Location: | Istanbul, Turkey |
| Posts: | 1352 |
| Occupation: | Publisher | | My bikes: | '05 BMW R1200GS in Red |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Sat Mar 22nd, 2008 06:22 pm |
|
I have heard of a way to switch off the servo, but keep most of the braking force. I'm definitely going to do this on my bike. I did think of selling it on, but I'd feel like crap as the next owner might have a serious off because of the brakes.
BMW really should do something about this. Perhaps if there are enough documented cases us owners could go to the press and get them to kick up a fuss. What about it Bike staffers, fancy giving us a hand?
____________________
Book of the Week! - Handbook of Neurologic Rating Scales. Buyers also bought Behavioral Aspects of Epilepsy. They were doctors probably.
|
outkast
Forum Member
| Joined: | Thu Oct 12th, 2006 |
| Location: | Durham, United Kingdom |
| Posts: | 769 |
| Occupation: | | | My bikes: | Yam FZ6S, |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Mar 23rd, 2008 08:05 am |
|
| MCN are pretty good at that.
|
dooley
Forum Member
| Joined: | Sat Jun 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | London, United Kingdom |
| Posts: | 3971 |
| Occupation: | 3rd rate shamus | | My bikes: | CBF600CTDi |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Mar 23rd, 2008 09:23 am |
|
someone translate those reports please
____________________
"And I wonder how long I'll hang around
Before I go insane
Before I break down
And get gone again"
|
ExpatinIstanbul
Forum Member
| Joined: | Mon Jan 15th, 2007 |
| Location: | Istanbul, Turkey |
| Posts: | 1352 |
| Occupation: | Publisher | | My bikes: | '05 BMW R1200GS in Red |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Thu Mar 27th, 2008 02:46 pm |
|
I don't know if dermeister is the same person as nemezis on UKGSer, but he says pretty much the same thing.
The Same Thing
____________________
Book of the Week! - Handbook of Neurologic Rating Scales. Buyers also bought Behavioral Aspects of Epilepsy. They were doctors probably.
|
Speedy23
Forum Member
| Joined: | Mon Aug 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Western Spiral Arm |
| Posts: | 782 |
| Occupation: | Illumination | | My bikes: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Mar 28th, 2008 09:57 am |
|
Multiple forum lurkers? Whatever next!
(but gotta agree...I've got the servo brakes on my 1200RT....finger (!) crossed....)
____________________
"Immanentizing the eschaton since 1956!"
|
Baya
Forum Member
| Joined: | Wed Sep 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | LOONYDON, United Kingdom |
| Posts: | 2722 |
| Occupation: | Playing Lottery | | My bikes: | ETV 1000 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Mar 28th, 2008 06:34 pm |
|
Isn't locking ABS brakes on the dry road a proof itself ?
Isn't witneses and Police stated that it was wheel lock , seeing the skid marks on tarmac a proof ?
Last edited on Fri Mar 28th, 2008 06:36 pm by Baya
|
ExpatinIstanbul
Forum Member
| Joined: | Mon Jan 15th, 2007 |
| Location: | Istanbul, Turkey |
| Posts: | 1352 |
| Occupation: | Publisher | | My bikes: | '05 BMW R1200GS in Red |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Sat Mar 29th, 2008 06:19 am |
|
Baya wrote: Isn't locking ABS brakes on the dry road a proof itself ?
Isn't witneses and Police stated that it was wheel lock , seeing the skid marks on tarmac a proof ?
That would depend on who is defending themselves. BMW and their army of lawyers would be able to show otherwise.
____________________
Book of the Week! - Handbook of Neurologic Rating Scales. Buyers also bought Behavioral Aspects of Epilepsy. They were doctors probably.
|
whitedove
Forum Member
| Joined: | Mon Mar 17th, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 4 |
| Occupation: | | | My bikes: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Mar 29th, 2008 05:06 pm |
|
Thank you to all
Since I last posted, I have been back in hospital again, TWICE, for further emergency surgery => could not post to this forum [the crash occurred more than 8 months ago and I am looking at the prospect of much more surgery to come]
Due to my medical state, I am unfortunately currently not able to respond more fully. I do, however, intend to elaborate on this forum asap
In the meantime, a couple of points for those of you who were kind enough to provide input:
1] in this case the rider had over forty years experoence, on road, on track and off road [and had never previously been involved in any incident whatsoever]
2[ at least the front brakes/wheel locked with no provocation whatsoever
3] the brakes/wheel remained locked despite having immediately released the brake lever
4] the machine immediately veered off the road and into the rock face. The rest is simply directly out of a horror movie [followed by an hour or so of emergency medical on the road side and an evacuation directly to hospital via helicopter, 6 hours of initial emrgency surgery etc., etc.]
5] in their report the police have recorded the tyre marks left on the road [caused by the locked brakes, which, of course, should never be possible with a correctly functioning ABS system ...... the exact opposite, actually]
6] eye witness report state that they saw the locked brakes/wheel[s]
7] the machine had been supplied and serviced by a main BMW dealer
So, no scaremongering intended here. However, people out there should of course have the benefit of knowing the facts. The story is only being told the way it is. Please do, however, be careful out there
Any additional news would be gratefully received. Thanks to all
|
Scrannel
Forum Member
| Joined: | Sun Mar 30th, 2008 |
| Location: | Malibu, California USA |
| Posts: | 6 |
| Occupation: | | | My bikes: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Mar 30th, 2008 10:40 pm |
|
I presume everyone here is aware of the ABS recall? Sorry, new to this forum, but as you may well know, if you go to http://www.safercar.gov/ (US) you will find the data on the recall parts etc. Mine is a 2006 KR and it says:
Manufacturer : BMW OF NORTH AMERICA, LLC Mfr's Report Date : MAY 12, 2006 NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number : 06V164000 N/A NHTSA Action Number: N/A Component: SERVICE BRAKES, HYDRAULIC:ANTILOCK Potential Number Of Units Affected : 13200
Remedy:
 DEALERS WILL ADD A PHYSICAL RESTRICTION, IN THE FORM OF A BANJO BOLT WITH A FLOW RESTRICTOR TO THE BRAKE LINE, AND ON CERTAIN MODELS DEALERS WILL INSTALL NEW FRONT BRAKE DISCS OF A SLIGHTLY LARGER THICKNESS FREE OF CHARGE. THE RECALL BEGAN ON JUNE 5, 2006, AND WILL BE A PHASED MAILING THROUGH OCTOBER 2006. OWNERS MAY CONTACT BMW AT 1-800-831-1117.
Now, this does not specifically describe the locked wheel issue... but I have a feeling... they changed my rotors from 4.5mm to 5mm -- which will read 4.5mm which is max wear. So, one must conclude on the KR, at any rate, the original system was running on rotors already "worn out". Did whitedove say what year his bike was?
Also, I read how to defeat the ABS on startup, not sure if that takes out the servo as well.
Last edited on Mon Mar 31st, 2008 12:15 am by Scrannel
|
Current time is 05:26 pm | Page: 1 2   |
|
