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wizenedoldprune
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Posted: Fri Aug 1st, 2008 08:02 pm |
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paul63 wrote: hirsty wrote: Ducati company ownership:
* (1926 - 1950) Formed & run by the three Ducati brothers * (1950 - 1967) Government IRI management years (In 1953 split into Ducati Meccanica, and Ducati Elettronica, now called Ducati Energia SpA) * (1967 - 78) Government EFIM management (control over day-to-day factory operations) * (1978 - 85) Subsidiary of state-subsidized VM Group
* (1985 - 1996) Cagiva Group ownership * (1996 - 2005) Texas-Pacific Group ownership and going public * (2005 - present) Investindustrial Holdings
As I said. It's a manufacturers lineage that defines it's heritage. Despite it's turbulant past, each owner of that company has left the Ducati brand alone. The bikes have evolved and there has been no brake in the bloodline, so to speak, and so it's bikes have evolved and can trace their lineage back to the first models ever produced. Despite being owned by various concerns, the brand has been kept alive and there has never been a prolonged brake in production. Compare that to Triumph who had liquidised 15 years before the name alone was bought and a series of bikes with absolutely no connection to the original marque started production.
I know of Triumph owners who think that anything after '69 is 'Japanese and they are as wrong as you heritage is 'Something that is passed down from preceding generations; a tradition.' and by any definition Triumph was handed on when Meridan was sold to the current owner of Triumph.
I've owned both Meridan and Hinkley Triumphs and they both had something about them that was recognisably 'Triumph' although wildly different in terms of their engine, gearbox and cycle parts - as were the first and last Kawasakis I owned.
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paul63
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Posted: Fri Aug 1st, 2008 08:10 pm |
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wizenedoldprune wrote: I know of Triumph owners who think that anything after '69 is 'Japanese and they are as wrong as you heritage is 'Something that is passed down from preceding generations; a tradition.' and by any definition Triumph was handed on when Meridan was sold to the current owner of Triumph.
Buying a name ten years after the company went into liquidation is not handing it down. That's a very naive statement. 
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VFRyoo
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Posted: Sat Aug 2nd, 2008 07:39 pm |
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I think the TDM used to be underrated but not anymore. In the last 12-18 months the prices have gone up significantly.
UK riders are finally realising what our european cousins new all along. it's a viable alternative all rounder to the VFR.
It may not be as fast but if you don't like the VFR weight on your wrists riding position then the TDM is definitely a good alternative.
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wizenedoldprune
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Posted: Sat Aug 2nd, 2008 09:53 pm |
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paul63 wrote: wizenedoldprune wrote: I know of Triumph owners who think that anything after '69 is 'Japanese and they are as wrong as you heritage is 'Something that is passed down from preceding generations; a tradition.' and by any definition Triumph was handed on when Meridan was sold to the current owner of Triumph.
Buying a name ten years after the company went into liquidation is not handing it down. That's a very naive statement.
sigh.........
and the TDM is underrated and a fine bike by all accounts, much like my old XS650 which at the time was really under rated but now is something of a classic. Time gives us great perspective doesn't it?
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dooley
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Posted: Sat Aug 2nd, 2008 10:00 pm |
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some interesting points made here about the triumph's heritage
http://bike.mywowbb.com/forum6/10878.html
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nickwiz
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Posted: Mon Aug 4th, 2008 07:26 pm |
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He won't listen to reason this paul63 bloke, will he? 
Yer so wrong mate its funny. Please tell me the connection between a ModelH, or a ModelP Triumph and a speedtwin? Wheres the direct lineage you keep on about?
Please eloborate on this direct lineage? The 1930s Triumphs bore very little relation to the earlier sidevalve engines. They were designed from scratch by a different designer. They shared virtualy nothing in common. The later unit engined Triumphs, other than being paralell twins were very different from the earlier pre unit engines. And Triumph famously made the Trident! up until the mid 70s so a new designed three cylinder engine borrowing some current technology is still very much a Triumph thing. Yes of course the designers of the new engine looked at current practise. They'd be stupid not to. It was the "oh it must have some link to the past" designs of the old T140s etc and the stagnation in thinking and design that nearly killed the Triumph name. The new owners and workers would have to have been idiots to continue in that mold.
I think its pretty funny that you think Triumph has no heritage. Riders over on the continent And in the US love Triumph, and the whole idea that this famous brand has been going for over 100 years. They seem to completely accept that new designs are ok its the name and the history of that name that realy matter.
Even the whole modular design concept that the current owners used to such clever effect to rebuild the Brand was being considered by the previous owners. So there is some direct lineage there for you. The Triumph Diana was stillborn because the company ran out of money. As did the 350 Triumph OHC designed by Edward Turner for Triumph BSA. So right up until the old factory closed brand new designs were being considered.
Realy Paul. Know your subject if your going to trash the whole heritage concept do it cleverly not blindly like you are. I've actualy seen no evidence that you realy know what I'm talking about. I expect the whole thing about the different models and redesigns and development has kind of gone over your head. You've just bought into to the myth that the new Triumphs arent Triumphs cos theyre different a bit like japanese bikes and someone else owns the company. Pretty slim grounds to press home your case.
Here have a read
http://www.ianchadwick.com/motorcycles/triumph/
Last edited on Mon Aug 4th, 2008 07:53 pm by nickwiz
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JonC
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Posted: Mon Aug 4th, 2008 07:58 pm |
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This is underated, but cool as you like!! Makes the new Buell 'jump jet' look like a proper dog!!  Attachment: Buell_lightning_XB12Scg-ok_2007_08_1024x768.jpg (Downloaded 88 times)
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wizenedoldprune
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Posted: Mon Aug 4th, 2008 10:15 pm |
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Could this have been an underrated bike? I quite fancied trying one but was put off by the MZ on the tank - too many graphic memories of an abused Supa 5 in a penniless youth............
Last edited on Mon Aug 4th, 2008 10:16 pm by wizenedoldprune
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nickwiz
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Posted: Tue Aug 5th, 2008 01:19 pm |
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Thats not a proper MZ its not a two swtroke old toast rack with skidwell tyres and no brakes! Or so Paul would tell you
But your right I thought they looked pretty good though I don't know cos I've never ridden one.
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Mav
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Posted: Tue Aug 5th, 2008 01:28 pm |
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JonC wrote: This is underated, but cool as you like!! Makes the new Buell 'jump jet' look like a proper dog!!
get rid of the tail end and that would look ace!
Bet the exhaust is made out of cheese though.
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Mav
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Posted: Tue Aug 5th, 2008 04:19 pm |
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My vote for underated bikes goes to the CB500 & the ER5.
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paul63
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Posted: Tue Aug 5th, 2008 07:23 pm |
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nickwiz wrote: He won't listen to reason this paul63 bloke, will he?
Yer so wrong mate its funny. Please tell me the connection between a ModelH, or a ModelP Triumph and a speedtwin? Wheres the direct lineage you keep on about?
Please eloborate on this direct lineage? The 1930s Triumphs bore very little relation to the earlier sidevalve engines. They were designed from scratch by a different designer. They shared virtualy nothing in common. The later unit engined Triumphs, other than being paralell twins were very different from the earlier pre unit engines. And Triumph famously made the Trident! up until the mid 70s so a new designed three cylinder engine borrowing some current technology is still very much a Triumph thing. Yes of course the designers of the new engine looked at current practise. They'd be stupid not to. It was the "oh it must have some link to the past" designs of the old T140s etc and the stagnation in thinking and design that nearly killed the Triumph name. The new owners and workers would have to have been idiots to continue in that mold.
I think its pretty funny that you think Triumph has no heritage. Riders over on the continent And in the US love Triumph, and the whole idea that this famous brand has been going for over 100 years. They seem to completely accept that new designs are ok its the name and the history of that name that realy matter.
Even the whole modular design concept that the current owners used to such clever effect to rebuild the Brand was being considered by the previous owners. So there is some direct lineage there for you. The Triumph Diana was stillborn because the company ran out of money. As did the 350 Triumph OHC designed by Edward Turner for Triumph BSA. So right up until the old factory closed brand new designs were being considered.
Realy Paul. Know your subject if your going to trash the whole heritage concept do it cleverly not blindly like you are. I've actualy seen no evidence that you realy know what I'm talking about. I expect the whole thing about the different models and redesigns and development has kind of gone over your head. You've just bought into to the myth that the new Triumphs arent Triumphs cos theyre different a bit like japanese bikes and someone else owns the company. Pretty slim grounds to press home your case.
Here have a read
http://www.ianchadwick.com/motorcycles/triumph/
Look at any factory that has been producing bikes for any length of time and you will see a lineage, or a family link that goes back to it's earliest days. Even when an all new engine is produced, it is based on years of development and refinement. Weather you are prepared to accept it or not, your bike has more in common with a Kawasaki ZX10 (apart from the engine) than it does with any original Triumph design.
Also, if you wish to associate your bike with all that is good about the Triumph brand, then I'm afraid you cannot bury your head in the sand when it comes to it's disastrous demise and the sheer incompetance that caused it, and the shocking bikes that rolled out of that factory in the final years.
The businessman Bloor did a very clever thing when he started to make a new range of bikes based on Japanese technology. He bought a well known name to go with it in the sure and certain knowledge that eventually it would become so well established that the buying public would actually start to believe that there was an unbroken connection with the original Triumph factory. Judging by your posts it's a marketing strategy that clearly worked brilliantly, and I have to say, hat's off to the guy for pulling it off.
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wizenedoldprune
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Posted: Tue Aug 5th, 2008 08:03 pm |
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paul63 wrote: nickwiz wrote: He won't listen to reason this paul63 bloke, will he?
Yer so wrong mate its funny. Please tell me the connection between a ModelH, or a ModelP Triumph and a speedtwin? Wheres the direct lineage you keep on about?
Please elaborate on this direct lineage? .....Here have a read
http://www.ianchadwick.com/motorcycles/triumph/
Look at any factory that has been producing bikes for any length of time and you will see a lineage, ......... and I have to say, hat's off to the guy for pulling it off.
- paul63, you're a card aren't you? Fancy! You'll be saying Moto Morini's lack heritage next!!!!
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Breva750
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Posted: Tue Aug 5th, 2008 09:21 pm |
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Or Guzzis...
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nickwiz
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Posted: Tue Aug 5th, 2008 11:19 pm |
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Paul yer daft! theres no direct lineage between models in any factory that isn't making crappy old tarted up shonkers, only a name! If your right then there isn't a bike maker in the world with any decent design work going on that has heritage or lineage.
I simply cant understand how you can know anything about the history of a brand name like Triumph, or the models and designs that came out of the various factories with triumph on the tank and claim that theres nowt in it.
Yes you daft bugger of course when designing new models and trying to improve the product Triumph took a look at the Japanese. I don't care if the early T3 series engines were similar to ZX10s. That was a sensible move. Look at the best available technology and make it better and give it some soul. And surely Triumph did that. I've owned Kwaks I quite liked em but the Hinkley Triumphs just had a certain something that those Kwaks didn't. Speed triple anyone?
Besides Kawasaki did exactly what Triumph did in the begining.
I give you a W1 the metric BSA! So whats wrong with Triumph turning the tables on em? Bloody canny move I'd say. Infact Kawasaki were so desperate to capture some of that Triumph magic they even tried it again recently with a 650 paralell twin
W650 anyone? So are these proper kawasakis or not? Or are they rebadged BSA's or Triumphs as you claim the modern Triumphs are effectively rebadged kawasaki's. Your argument is complete nonsense but its been entertaining proving you wrong so thanks! 
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dooley
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Posted: Tue Aug 5th, 2008 11:32 pm |
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hate to spoil anyone's fun, but check the link i posted - notice any similarities?
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PaulR
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Posted: Tue Aug 5th, 2008 11:37 pm |
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Yes, but I've already been told off for making connections like that. We mustn't be hostile to innocent newbs.
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nickwiz
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Posted: Tue Aug 5th, 2008 11:38 pm |
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| I checked it. Said bugger all realy about Triumph other than the usual ill informed cobblers about the new factory and some stuff about how wonderful Guzzi tractors were . Last edited on Tue Aug 5th, 2008 11:41 pm by nickwiz
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dooley
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Posted: Wed Aug 6th, 2008 12:03 am |
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oops, wrong thread
Last edited on Wed Aug 6th, 2008 04:48 am by dooley
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nickwiz
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Posted: Wed Aug 6th, 2008 12:12 am |
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huh?
ok i was gettin reet cofused there.
Last edited on Wed Aug 6th, 2008 03:35 pm by nickwiz
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